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Conflict in the Middle East
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hellohellooo · 17/12/2024 21:34

@Alwayslookonthe never heard such nonsense in all my life

Are you feeling ok?

Piverlool · 17/12/2024 22:20

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 20:46

That fellow, Brendan O’Neill, has a very warped view of Irish people @Alwayslookonthe, even though his parents were Irish I believe.

He was critical of the Good Friday Agreement at the time. He was still calling it ‘a cruel, unjust treaty’ last year.

During Brexit he said
”It isn’t Brexit Britain that is nostalgic for Empire - it’s Ireland. The Irish elite’s uncritical devotion to the EU suggests they long to be ruled over once again.”

?!?!?!?!?!?!

The things he says are often so far from right, so unrepresentative of what Irish people living in Ireland actually think, they’re laughable. The pity of it is others read him and think of him as valid.

But it really would be a mistake to listen to him. What he’s written wrt Ireland and Irish politicians is nonsensical (yet again!)

He says he’s ashamed to be Irish.
Reading your link, I am also ashamed he’s Irish. He’s an embarrassment.

MothToAnInferno · 17/12/2024 22:58

Kindatired · 17/12/2024 21:17

How does one cancel a country & what power does Israel have to do that?
Here’s the recipe: Take a few facts. Describe them in emotive language. Publish them in a sensationalist rag or a via a propaganda agent mascarading as an NGO with a worthy name. Then write an article in a more mainstream publication of a “hang em, flog em” type quoting the original report, “study”. Get a conservative politician to make a speech referencing layers one and/or two. Eventually the facts form the basis for a spiral of false propaganda.
Let’s start with

  1. Limerick pogram ( Antisemitic preacher +stone throwing boy in city made famous by “Angela’s Ashes”). The Jewish people who went to Limerick struggled and left, the ones who stayed in Cork thrived. Sporadic incidence of antisemitism x2. Simon Montefiore’s family stories might be true, but 1904 if you owed money in Limerick????? I wouldn’t take it personally tbh as many non Jews probably had to take a hit or risk getting beaten up- this was a garrison town at the time and very rough
  2. Children from a non-denominational Educate Together secondary school tormented a Jewish kid by doing Nazi salutes to show their disapproval of the carnage wreaked by the IDF on the civilian population of Gaza. This seems to be an individual breach of school policy by pupils rather than evidence of widespread anti semitism.
  3. Former TD Chris Andrew’s offered “Free Palestine “ bracelets outside a Dublin school. He supports a two state solution. He wasn’t doing it as part of his role as a Public representative, he didn’t force them on anyone. We have I ❤️ Israel bracelets that my teen brought home. So….
  4. Textbooks. Discussed ad nauseum here. Choice of textbook up to individual year head and choice can be overseen by Board of Management. So mum of teen who is herself on Board of Management of the private fee paying Jewish school gives an interview complaining about the civics books her school chosen to use. The problem appears to be that the teens are asked to empathise with Palestinians in the occupied Territories. Nothing that wasn’t based on fact was in the civics books. Offending images in primary school books have been updated. There have been no complaints from the Buddhists or the Jehovah's witnesses that they were not shown to be carrying out good works even though each group is about 4 times bigger in size than the Jewish community .
  5. A city councillor who was not raised or educated in Ireland said the entire US economy was “ruled by Jews” and later withdrew the remark and apologised.
So take these facts and others in the same vein then add the Ireland Israel Alliance, a mysteriously funded NGO whose aim appears to be is to generate the raw materials for propaganda to undermine Irelands voice on the international stage.

That's a great break down, thanks for taking the time to do it.

I think one thing that this situation has really highlighted is the difference in finesse between the Irish government and the Israeli government. It's really clear which government is used to dealing with matters in a democratic, peaceful manner and which country goes at things with a sledge hammer(or 2000lb bombs). I've never seen Simon Harris get as many positive comments as he has over the past few days, he has shown real dignity in the face of awful unfounded allegations.

SharonEllis · 17/12/2024 23:14

TrishM80 · 17/12/2024 20:27

White in the sense that most of their govt are descendant from Europeans.

Superpower in the sense that they have a nuclear arsenal and are backed financially and militarily by the United States and other western countries.

And "good guys" in the sense that anyone who doesn't slavishly and without question admit that Israel are the "good guys" and the Palestinians deserve everything that is happening to them is automatically an antisemite.

Show quote history

You have looked into the family history of all of the members of the Israeli government. Is that perhaps a bit obsessive? Is there any other country in the world where the genealogy of its politicians is of interest to you? Or is it just Israeli politicians?

For those interested in a more rational fact based approach here is an article about ethnic diversity in Israel https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893

The largest ethnic group in Israel is Mizrahi Jews directly from the middle east. Others come from North Africa, Ethiopia, Asia, including India.

Your definition of superpower is probably unique. I'm sure Ukraine will be delighted to know its been elevated to a superpower. Israel is not backed financially by anyone as its a highly successful economy. Aid from the US is tied to its military.

As for the good guys/bad guys maybe you should broaden your media because you don't need to limit yourself to reading stuff from people with such limited intellectual capbility.

Israel’s mosaic of Jewish ethnic groups is key to understanding the country

The diversity of Israel’s Jewish population has been a source of tensions, but also strength, over the decades.

https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893

andIsaid · 18/12/2024 04:32

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 20:43

Israel is judged by different standards.

If it was anyone else, they would probably settle for a word (or term) already available: massacre, mass slaughter . . .

Because let’s face it genocide DOESN’T fit unless it is changed it to fit.

Show quote history

An easy solution here would be to open up Gaza to foreign journalists.

Let them see and document.

Why, if there is no genocide and nothing to hide, has Israel hidden Gaza from the world?

andIsaid · 18/12/2024 04:55

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 20:43

Israel is judged by different standards.

If it was anyone else, they would probably settle for a word (or term) already available: massacre, mass slaughter . . .

Because let’s face it genocide DOESN’T fit unless it is changed it to fit.

Show quote history

Yes it is.

The US gives it 3 billion dollars annually.

The EU sent about 12.2 billion in 2021.

It also has a free trade agreement with Israel, so no tax.

Ditto the EU.

US citizens who also hold Israeli citizenship can go fight with the IDF.

It can blow its neighbours to smithereens every few years or so, and no international country will hold it to account.

It can shoot 17,000 children while "looking for terrorists" and no international country will hold it to account.

Meanwhile, they can do a targeted killing of all the top personal in a different terrorist organization without any extra casualties and no international country will ask them to square that circle.

It's ministers can call the people they are blowing up "human animals" and no international country will hold it to account.

It pretty much does what it wants and is given the money to do it with.

So yeah, definitely held to a different standard.

And even then, it is not enough.

They blow my mind.

andIsaid · 18/12/2024 05:31

SharonEllis · 17/12/2024 23:14

You have looked into the family history of all of the members of the Israeli government. Is that perhaps a bit obsessive? Is there any other country in the world where the genealogy of its politicians is of interest to you? Or is it just Israeli politicians?

For those interested in a more rational fact based approach here is an article about ethnic diversity in Israel https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893

The largest ethnic group in Israel is Mizrahi Jews directly from the middle east. Others come from North Africa, Ethiopia, Asia, including India.

Your definition of superpower is probably unique. I'm sure Ukraine will be delighted to know its been elevated to a superpower. Israel is not backed financially by anyone as its a highly successful economy. Aid from the US is tied to its military.

As for the good guys/bad guys maybe you should broaden your media because you don't need to limit yourself to reading stuff from people with such limited intellectual capbility.

Show quote history

The largest ethnic group in Israel is Mizrahi Jews directly from the middle east. Others come from North Africa, Ethiopia, Asia, including India.

But they are not the ruling class. The other poster is right. Most of this extremely right wring Israeli gov have their White roots in Eastern Europe. Racial differences in Israeli society mirror that of the US; Whites tend to be better off. Protests and riots over the years show a consistency in this matter, unfortunately. The Israeli Ethopians got a good pasting from the White Israeli police in 2023.

Your definition of superpower is probably unique. I'm sure Ukraine will be delighted to know its been elevated to a superpower.

The poster is also right on this point though - Israel is a regional super power, and because of the devotion of the US and EU governments, it is basically untouchable.

Israel is not backed financially by anyone as its a highly successful economy. Aid from the US is tied to its military.

This is such bollox. I have nothing more to say on that matter.

OchaLove · 18/12/2024 05:36

SharonEllis · 17/12/2024 23:14

You have looked into the family history of all of the members of the Israeli government. Is that perhaps a bit obsessive? Is there any other country in the world where the genealogy of its politicians is of interest to you? Or is it just Israeli politicians?

For those interested in a more rational fact based approach here is an article about ethnic diversity in Israel https://theconversation.com/israels-mosaic-of-jewish-ethnic-groups-is-key-to-understanding-the-country-217893

The largest ethnic group in Israel is Mizrahi Jews directly from the middle east. Others come from North Africa, Ethiopia, Asia, including India.

Your definition of superpower is probably unique. I'm sure Ukraine will be delighted to know its been elevated to a superpower. Israel is not backed financially by anyone as its a highly successful economy. Aid from the US is tied to its military.

As for the good guys/bad guys maybe you should broaden your media because you don't need to limit yourself to reading stuff from people with such limited intellectual capbility.

Show quote history

"Israel is not backed financially by anyone as its a highly successful economy. Aid from the US is tied to its military."

There are anti-BDS laws (Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions) in USA adopted by many states. According to these laws you can’t boycott or support boycott of Israel and be employed by the state government or you can't work as a state contractor.

OchaLove · 18/12/2024 05:43

There are prominent high tech American companies directly involved in projects together with Israel military. These projects are said to be in violation of human rights and were one of the main requests of campus protests before protests were shut down for being allegedly antisemitic. These projects were also protested by Google's own employees for the same violation of human rights reasons, and employees for terminated for protesting.

www.wired.com/story/amazon-google-project-nimbus-israel-idf/

OchaLove · 18/12/2024 05:51

The relations with Israel and USA are not only restricted to military aid as you can see above. Even the social fabric of USA is being forced to change for Israel's needs including freedom of speech and freedom to boycott.

To me, it seems like Israel is the 51st state with special treatment that no other state gets.

OchaLove · 18/12/2024 05:53

I had a map for anti-BDS laws but it doesn't show up. So here is the link that also contains the map:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-BDS_laws

Dulra · 18/12/2024 08:07

MothToAnInferno · 17/12/2024 22:58

That's a great break down, thanks for taking the time to do it.

I think one thing that this situation has really highlighted is the difference in finesse between the Irish government and the Israeli government. It's really clear which government is used to dealing with matters in a democratic, peaceful manner and which country goes at things with a sledge hammer(or 2000lb bombs). I've never seen Simon Harris get as many positive comments as he has over the past few days, he has shown real dignity in the face of awful unfounded allegations.

Show quote history

I think one thing that this situation has really highlighted is the difference in finesse between the Irish government and the Israeli government. It's really clear which government is used to dealing with matters in a democratic, peaceful manner and which country goes at things with a sledge hammer(or 2000lb bombs)
Yes I have been thinking about this. Ireland has zero military might it has no option but to rely on diplomacy, collaboration, partnership, dialogue and as a result it does it very well. We are not closing the Irish embassy in Tel Aviv, despite Simon Harris now being referred to by Israeli government as "Irelands antisemitic Prime Minister" because the government recognise the importance of keeping dialogue open with the Israeli government. Every interview I have heard or listened to from Israeli government spokespeople on Irish and British media have been so aggressive and confrontational it is such a different approach and I don't think it is working for them, their message is lost because they just get everyone's backs up, I know I end up switching it off.

TrishM80 · 18/12/2024 09:30

OchaLove · 18/12/2024 05:51

The relations with Israel and USA are not only restricted to military aid as you can see above. Even the social fabric of USA is being forced to change for Israel's needs including freedom of speech and freedom to boycott.

To me, it seems like Israel is the 51st state with special treatment that no other state gets.

The US Congress gives billions to Israel every year. Israel siphons a lot of that money to Israeli lobby groups in the US such as AIPAC who then "donate" it to American politicians of both parties, in order for them to keep voting for Israeli interests.

And of course, when it comes to killing impoverished brown people in Asia on an industrial scale, America will always have your back. They've been doing it for decades themselves.

samG76 · 18/12/2024 09:32

I think one thing that this situation has really highlighted is the difference in finesse between the Irish government and the Israeli government. It's really clear which government is used to dealing with matters in a democratic, peaceful manner and which country goes at things with a sledge hammer(or 2000lb bombs)

If Israel were a pretty irrelevant island with no hostile neighbours then it could virtue-signal, in the same way as Ireland (and New Zealand, as it happen). Then when any major threat occurred, like in WWII, it could proclaim its neutrality and rely on other countries. And of course Ireland aren't members of Nato, so are relying on others to deal with the Russian threat on their behalf. States like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia would dearly love to be able to rabbit on about being peaceful but their geographical location makes this impractible.

SharonEllis · 18/12/2024 09:43

TrishM80 · 18/12/2024 09:30

The US Congress gives billions to Israel every year. Israel siphons a lot of that money to Israeli lobby groups in the US such as AIPAC who then "donate" it to American politicians of both parties, in order for them to keep voting for Israeli interests.

And of course, when it comes to killing impoverished brown people in Asia on an industrial scale, America will always have your back. They've been doing it for decades themselves.

Show quote history

This is misinformation and to try and ramp this up into a race war, talking about white people & brown people, and trying to impose a completely irrelevant 'colonial' template on it is disgusting. May I remind you that this war started with the massacre of civilians by Hamas who have impoverished their own people for decades, siphoning off vast quantities of aid to build tunnels and their own military machine, not to mention lining the pockets very nicely of their leadership who are vastly wealthy.

Dulra · 18/12/2024 09:47

samG76 · 18/12/2024 09:32

I think one thing that this situation has really highlighted is the difference in finesse between the Irish government and the Israeli government. It's really clear which government is used to dealing with matters in a democratic, peaceful manner and which country goes at things with a sledge hammer(or 2000lb bombs)

If Israel were a pretty irrelevant island with no hostile neighbours then it could virtue-signal, in the same way as Ireland (and New Zealand, as it happen). Then when any major threat occurred, like in WWII, it could proclaim its neutrality and rely on other countries. And of course Ireland aren't members of Nato, so are relying on others to deal with the Russian threat on their behalf. States like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia would dearly love to be able to rabbit on about being peaceful but their geographical location makes this impractible.

If Israel were a pretty irrelevant island
Nice

with no hostile neighbours
Oh but we did have hostile neighbours at one time and did have to use the gun to gain back our independence we well understand that diplomacy will only go so far and the need for a military response at times but ultimately it was not the gun that brought peace to the Island it was compromise, negotiation and dialogue

And of course Ireland aren't members of Nato, so are relying on others to deal with the Russian threat on their behalf. States like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia would dearly love to be able to rabbit on about being peaceful but their geographical location makes this impractible.
Never said there is not a need for a military response at times just highlighting the lack of a diplomatic one from the current Israeli government

MothToAnInferno · 18/12/2024 09:48

samG76 · 18/12/2024 09:32

I think one thing that this situation has really highlighted is the difference in finesse between the Irish government and the Israeli government. It's really clear which government is used to dealing with matters in a democratic, peaceful manner and which country goes at things with a sledge hammer(or 2000lb bombs)

If Israel were a pretty irrelevant island with no hostile neighbours then it could virtue-signal, in the same way as Ireland (and New Zealand, as it happen). Then when any major threat occurred, like in WWII, it could proclaim its neutrality and rely on other countries. And of course Ireland aren't members of Nato, so are relying on others to deal with the Russian threat on their behalf. States like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia would dearly love to be able to rabbit on about being peaceful but their geographical location makes this impractible.

I don't think the fact that Israel isn't well liked means that they can't train their politicians in finesse and diplomacy. If anything that is an argument for why they should dedicate more time and energy into that. Instead they pour money into hasbara and ad campaigns full of misinformation. If their politicians knew how to work well with others, how to speak in the professional world of politics it would probably save them a lot of money in the long run which it sounds like they need.

Piverlool · 18/12/2024 09:54

samG76 · 18/12/2024 09:32

I think one thing that this situation has really highlighted is the difference in finesse between the Irish government and the Israeli government. It's really clear which government is used to dealing with matters in a democratic, peaceful manner and which country goes at things with a sledge hammer(or 2000lb bombs)

If Israel were a pretty irrelevant island with no hostile neighbours then it could virtue-signal, in the same way as Ireland (and New Zealand, as it happen). Then when any major threat occurred, like in WWII, it could proclaim its neutrality and rely on other countries. And of course Ireland aren't members of Nato, so are relying on others to deal with the Russian threat on their behalf. States like Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia would dearly love to be able to rabbit on about being peaceful but their geographical location makes this impractible.

Ireland expressing it’s deep concern for thousands upon thousands of dead civilians in Gaza isn’t ‘virtue signalling’.

SharonEllis · 18/12/2024 09:55

Piverlool · 18/12/2024 09:54

Ireland expressing it’s deep concern for thousands upon thousands of dead civilians in Gaza isn’t ‘virtue signalling’.

Show quote history

Of course it is.

Afreebird · 18/12/2024 10:03

SharonEllis · 18/12/2024 09:55

Of course it is.

Show quote history

What a terrible thing to say, no it is not. I can't fathom why some people are taken aback that a democratic government would object to indiscriminate slaughter.

OchaLove · 18/12/2024 10:04

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

MothToAnInferno · 18/12/2024 10:06

There's worse things to be than virtue signallers, we could be responsible for the slaughter of 10s of 1000s of people, we could operate apartheid, we could be illegal occupiers. I'd rather have virtue signallers in power than war criminals any day of the week!

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