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Conflict in the Middle East
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Afreebird · 17/12/2024 12:16

SharonEllis · 17/12/2024 12:02

Agreed, which was why I suggested putting it in a wider context in which Israel is not a major player, tbough its upsetting for any Christian harassed in Israel, and obviously wrong.

Can you really not see that the issue was raised rightfully so, to show the hypocrisy of the Israeli government or are we just choosing to not understand.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/12/2024 12:17

MothToAnInferno · 17/12/2024 12:00

But it's fair to focus in on Ireland when talking about antisemitism? Imagine if Ireland were to announce on the world stage that they couldn't possibly deal with Israel anymore due to the extremely hostile environment for Christians in Israel making it impossible. Ireland would have far more to back up this claim than Israel has to back up their claims that they made on the world stage about Ireland. I think it is more than fair to focus attention on Israel given their behaviour.

I assume you are talking generally -not addressing me in particular? I’ve not accused Ireland of anti semitism.
anti semitism can be found in all countries. But I suppose the thread title has meant this thread is focused on Ireland.

SharonEllis · 17/12/2024 12:20

LookItsMeAgain · 17/12/2024 09:11

No, Ireland is not hostile to Jews and to say or repeat such nonsense keeps the 'fake news' rolling around for another news cycle.

Ireland doesn't agree with Israel bombing the hell out of Gaza or Syria (who have just managed to overthrow a dictator themselves) or any other country.

That is what we have an issue with. Whether someone is a practising Jew, Muslim, Catholic, Protestant or of no faith whatsoever, Ireland is not hostile to you.

How can you say that when Jews in Ireland are telling you different? To disregard a minority when they tell you how they feel is at best discrimination. Jews in Ireland are not responsible for Israel. Why are you not listening?

Dulra · 17/12/2024 12:30

samG76 · 17/12/2024 11:57

Treatment of rabbis in Ireland - well, a rabbi was recently remanded in custody for weeks and refused kosher food because he carried out what the Irish considered a non-religious circumcision. Note that he is licensed to perform them on Jews but this was considered to be a cultural one for an African family (who of course had requested it). The difference between culture and religion is a fine one, and I think the authorities could reasonably have sent him a letter setting out their interpretation of the rules, and asking him to desist, rather than arresting him.

Are you referring to this?

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0822/1466256-rabbi-court/

Mr Abraham was arrested in Dublin on 30 July and accused of performing a surgical procedure, male circumcision on a child, without being a registered medical practitioner at an address in Dublin 15.

Note that he is licensed to perform them on Jews
He wasn't licensed to perform them in Ireland though? Maybe he wasn't aware he was in a separate country to the UK....
Struggling to see what your issue is here beyond not providing him with Kosher food

Rabbi accused of illegal circumcision granted bail

A London rabbi charged with performing an illegal circumcision on a baby boy in Dublin has been granted bail and has been allowed to return to the UK pending trial after a judge ruled that he was not a flight risk.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2024/0822/1466256-rabbi-court

MothToAnInferno · 17/12/2024 12:31

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/12/2024 12:17

I assume you are talking generally -not addressing me in particular? I’ve not accused Ireland of anti semitism.
anti semitism can be found in all countries. But I suppose the thread title has meant this thread is focused on Ireland.

Edited

I'm talking about the Israeli governments actions and the actions of pro Israel lobby groups taking out ads to deliberately spread misinformation about Ireland. I'm also talking about this thread, of course if it is fair to zone in on Ireland it is fair to zone in on the dispicable treatment of Christians in Israel and the OPT. Israeli snipers shot and killed an elderly Christian woman on her way to convent but Ireland have 'gone over the line'? It's quite the outrageous claim from Israel.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/12/2024 12:39

MothToAnInferno · 17/12/2024 12:31

I'm talking about the Israeli governments actions and the actions of pro Israel lobby groups taking out ads to deliberately spread misinformation about Ireland. I'm also talking about this thread, of course if it is fair to zone in on Ireland it is fair to zone in on the dispicable treatment of Christians in Israel and the OPT. Israeli snipers shot and killed an elderly Christian woman on her way to convent but Ireland have 'gone over the line'? It's quite the outrageous claim from Israel.

Yes it’s fair to mention the appalling mistreatment of Christians in Israel . I just wanted to point out how widespread Christian persecution is because in my experience hardly anyone knows .

I also don’t think anyone ( whatever religion) should experience prejudice or discrimination because they come from a country that persecutes Christians.

Afreebird · 17/12/2024 12:42

"I also don’t think anyone ( whatever religion) should experience prejudice or discrimination because they come from a country that persecutes Christians."

I'm sure we are all in agreement to this as not a single poster on this thread has suggested or even implied that.

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/12/2024 12:46

Afreebird · 17/12/2024 12:42

"I also don’t think anyone ( whatever religion) should experience prejudice or discrimination because they come from a country that persecutes Christians."

I'm sure we are all in agreement to this as not a single poster on this thread has suggested or even implied that.

Yes - I know. I’m probably stating the obvious. I’m not suggesting that people weren’t in agreement. There are minority groups in London ( eg Pakistani/ Somali etc) who have been on the receiving end of racial bigotry. It would not be fair to use the excuse of Christian persecution to persecute innocent Pakistanis etc .
I apologise if I’m stating the obvious but these things do happen.

JaneJeffer · 17/12/2024 12:51

I also don’t think anyone ( whatever religion) should experience prejudice or discrimination because they come from a country that persecutes Christians.
I think one thing everyone on this thread can agree with is that nobody thinks so.

mollyfolk · 17/12/2024 12:53

Yes it's a smear tactic. Simon Harris has been extremely diplomatic and pro human rights/pro peace. As was Leo before him. And I wouldn't normally be speaking well of Fine Gael. I disagree with other parties approach to this issue - like Sinn Fein.

www.thejournal.ie/amnesty-international-invented-definitiion-of-genocide-israel-gaza-6568231-Dec2024/

Noticed the whole "redefined genocide" theme on here and found this article which addresses this criticism of the Amnesty report . I think it's an excellent article.

samG76 · 17/12/2024 12:59

Dulra - he was qualified and licensed to perform them on members of the Jewish community in Ireland. The question was whether he could perform them on non-Jews (eg Muslims) who wanted it done for religious reasons or whether "religious" for this purpose just meant Jews. Given that everyone concerned consented it seemed ludicrously over the top.

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 13:16

mollyfolk · 17/12/2024 12:53

Yes it's a smear tactic. Simon Harris has been extremely diplomatic and pro human rights/pro peace. As was Leo before him. And I wouldn't normally be speaking well of Fine Gael. I disagree with other parties approach to this issue - like Sinn Fein.

www.thejournal.ie/amnesty-international-invented-definitiion-of-genocide-israel-gaza-6568231-Dec2024/

Noticed the whole "redefined genocide" theme on here and found this article which addresses this criticism of the Amnesty report . I think it's an excellent article.

Amnesty International—which, as an entity, lacks jurisdiction or expertise in determining whether a genocide is taking place—was unable to establish intent in its report and had to broaden the definition to reach its predetermined conclusion. Ireland has indeed called for broadening the definition

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 13:19

samG76 · 17/12/2024 12:59

Dulra - he was qualified and licensed to perform them on members of the Jewish community in Ireland. The question was whether he could perform them on non-Jews (eg Muslims) who wanted it done for religious reasons or whether "religious" for this purpose just meant Jews. Given that everyone concerned consented it seemed ludicrously over the top.

What was ludicrously over the top was sending him to prison, denying him bail for weeks, denying him kosher food and his prayer tefillin.

Lalaloveya · 17/12/2024 13:41

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 13:16

Amnesty International—which, as an entity, lacks jurisdiction or expertise in determining whether a genocide is taking place—was unable to establish intent in its report and had to broaden the definition to reach its predetermined conclusion. Ireland has indeed called for broadening the definition

Did you read the article?

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 13:43

mollyfolk · 17/12/2024 12:53

Yes it's a smear tactic. Simon Harris has been extremely diplomatic and pro human rights/pro peace. As was Leo before him. And I wouldn't normally be speaking well of Fine Gael. I disagree with other parties approach to this issue - like Sinn Fein.

www.thejournal.ie/amnesty-international-invented-definitiion-of-genocide-israel-gaza-6568231-Dec2024/

Noticed the whole "redefined genocide" theme on here and found this article which addresses this criticism of the Amnesty report . I think it's an excellent article.

The article you linked to attempts to explain away Amnesty International's reasoning by offering some personal opinions on what the interpretation of the Genocide Convention should be and what they thought AI and Ireland might have meant.
The problem is that neither Amnesty nor Ireland have made these arguments themselves. Amnesty barely even attempted to justify their reasoning and spent less than three pages repeating, almost verbatim, a single dissenting opinion in a 14-2 ruling. But that, as they well know, is not how the law works. You cannot just gloss over precedent, and it is shameful that Amnesty did not even make an attempt at making any sort of real argument. It was, objectively, incredibly sloppy work.

Dulra · 17/12/2024 13:45

samG76 · 17/12/2024 12:59

Dulra - he was qualified and licensed to perform them on members of the Jewish community in Ireland. The question was whether he could perform them on non-Jews (eg Muslims) who wanted it done for religious reasons or whether "religious" for this purpose just meant Jews. Given that everyone concerned consented it seemed ludicrously over the top.

Well he was arrested and charged he'll have his day in court to clear his name if innocent or convicted if guilty of breaking Irish law.

Given that everyone concerned consented it seemed ludicrously over the top.
Irrelevant if an adult consents if the state deems the person not legally authorised to carry out the procedure in the state. After googling I have noted that it is another incident used to smear Ireland as antisemitic.

Dulra · 17/12/2024 13:50

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 13:19

What was ludicrously over the top was sending him to prison, denying him bail for weeks, denying him kosher food and his prayer tefillin.

He was not a citizen of the state so no doubt sent to prison until bail could be granted he was initially considered a flight risk. Report I read on it. I think he was treated fairly. We all need to be aware of the laws of states we're traveling to

A London rabbi charged with performing an illegal circumcision on a baby boy in Dublin has been granted bail and has been allowed to return to the UK pending trial after a judge ruled that he was not a flight risk.

Almost three weeks since he went into prison custody in Ireland and was kept in solitary confinement, Jonathan Abraham, 47, had bail set at €60,000 with a range of conditions by Ms Justice Karen O'Connor in the High Court in Cloverhill, Dublin.

Mr Abraham was arrested in Dublin on 30 July and accused of performing a surgical procedure, male circumcision on a child, without being a registered medical practitioner at an address in Dublin 15.

Two days later, the married father of ten, a British citizen from north London, was denied District Court bail, but he lodged a fresh application in the High Court.
The judge heard an outline of the allegations and garda concerns that he would turn up for trial.
After money was raised to help him secure bail, the defence proposed a suite of conditions.
Having heard evidence and submissions and receiving testimonials and an affidavit from the accused, Ms Justice O'Connor delivered her ruling.
The court heard Rabbi Abraham was a member of the Initiation Society, the oldest Anglo-Jewish organisation, founded in 1745.
He was a mohel and trained to perform circumcisions in the UK.
Ms Justice O'Connor noted that Ireland's Chief Rabbi Yoni Wieder had vouched for the accused's character and offered to stand bail and provide him with accommodation in Dublin if necessary.
Chief Rabbi Wieder also agreed with defence barrister Ronan Kennedy that it would be frowned upon in the defendant's community if he evaded justice.
Ms Justice O'Connor set bail in his bond of €50,000, raised by the Jewish community, which must be lodged in court, along with a further €10,000 from Mr Wieder, who is to act as an independent surety.
The bail hearing was also told that no mohel had been prosecuted in this manner before, and the accused could have to remain in custody for up to two years pending trial if he were denied bail.
Mr Kennedy said his client intended to contest the case, which has attracted international attention, and "the entire Jewish community stands fairly and squarely behind him".
Ms Justice O'Connor held that the State had not established he was a flight risk to the requisite for the court to refuse bail.
She noted the hardship his detention had caused his family and held that he didn't have to reside in Ireland when his trial may not be heard for another two years.

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 13:56

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Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 14:02

Returning to Ireland’s decision to broaden the definition of genocide.

The official statement from the Irish government was that "by legally intervening in South Africa’s case, Ireland will be asking the ICJ to broaden its interpretation of what constitutes the commission of genocide by a State."

Suggesting that there is a significant difference between Ireland asking for an expanded “definition” versus an expanded “interpretation” is either a misunderstanding, or, at worst, an intentional attempt to deflect.

What it does highlight however, is that under the current definition of genocide along with the interpretations from precedents, Israel is not committing genocide.

Dulra · 17/12/2024 14:06

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Well explain why you think he wasn't? Have you looked into how other non Irish citizens are treated in custody to compare? Do you think his treatment was different because he was Jewish? He committed a crime he was arrested, once he got his bail hearing he was granted bail and is now back in the UK awaiting trial.

What does "as an Irish citizen mean"? As an Irish citizen I am very aware of what prejudice in judicial systems and ill treatment of people looks like.

Martymcfly24 · 17/12/2024 14:11

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Are you implying that because the poster is Irish they are anti semitic so agree with the sentencing or have I misunderstood you ?

Auvergne63 · 17/12/2024 14:16

OpheliaWasntMad · 17/12/2024 11:25

I totally agree- that is a terrible act and if the reverse happened in Ireland it would have been rightfully condemned.
But that wasn’t the point I was making. I was making a different point - persecution against Christians is widespread and more severe in many other countries .

I really can't understand how stating that Christians suffer more in other ME countries make it ok for Israeli Christians to suffer discrimination because it isn't as bad there than somewhere else.
It's like saying to someone, "never mind that you have a broken leg, your neighbour has broken both of his" so consider yourself lucky.
Bonkers!

SharonEllis · 17/12/2024 14:20

Auvergne63 · 17/12/2024 14:16

I really can't understand how stating that Christians suffer more in other ME countries make it ok for Israeli Christians to suffer discrimination because it isn't as bad there than somewhere else.
It's like saying to someone, "never mind that you have a broken leg, your neighbour has broken both of his" so consider yourself lucky.
Bonkers!

Noboy has said this though.

Alwayslookonthe · 17/12/2024 14:21

Dulra · 17/12/2024 14:06

Well explain why you think he wasn't? Have you looked into how other non Irish citizens are treated in custody to compare? Do you think his treatment was different because he was Jewish? He committed a crime he was arrested, once he got his bail hearing he was granted bail and is now back in the UK awaiting trial.

What does "as an Irish citizen mean"? As an Irish citizen I am very aware of what prejudice in judicial systems and ill treatment of people looks like.

No I don’t think he was treated fairly. He was refused bail, even though the Chief rabbi of Ireland vouched for him and said he would be staying in his accommodation. So he was sent to jail and then not provided for, with regards to food and prayer requirements.

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