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Conflict in the Middle East

Ireland believe genocide being perpetrated

356 replies

username7891 · 09/11/2024 22:24

I'm surprised this hasn't already been posted but Ireland passed a non binding motion a few days ago that “genocide is being perpetrated before our eyes by Israel in Gaza”.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/micheal-martin-ireland-south-africa-gaza-people-b1192666.html

OP posts:
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9
Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 19:42

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 19:25

Of course.

Does political zionism include the expansion of settlements?

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 19:44

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 19:40

But the Palestinians didn't come in, take their homes and make them pay rent to stay there, stop them from practicing their religion, starve them, send in their own special branch of police to keep control of them, ALL of which the British have done to the Irish through the hundreds of years of occupation here, so no there's no similarities whatsoever

Exactly, rather it was the other way round. Zionism is founded on the murder and expulsion of thousands of indigenous Palestinians who were already living on the land.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 19:50

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 19:40

But the Palestinians didn't come in, take their homes and make them pay rent to stay there, stop them from practicing their religion, starve them, send in their own special branch of police to keep control of them, ALL of which the British have done to the Irish through the hundreds of years of occupation here, so no there's no similarities whatsoever

Arabs did do most of those things. Jews were second class citizens in the caliphate, payed extra taxes and were prohibited from doing certain things such as accessing some courts, owning land above a certain amount, working in specific industries etc. The Arab conquest was brutal and the Arabs continued treat the Jewish minority badly during the era of caliphates and the Ottomans. The racism against Jews by the Arab majority continued even when the British empire “acquired” Transjordan from the Turks.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 19:53

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 19:44

Exactly, rather it was the other way round. Zionism is founded on the murder and expulsion of thousands of indigenous Palestinians who were already living on the land.

The Palestinians were “already living in Israel” like the British were “already living in Ireland” ie the specific individuals may have been born there, but their ancestors got there through conquest and empire building.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 19:55

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 19:42

Does political zionism include the expansion of settlements?

Not to my knowledge. My impression is that the majority of Zionists would gladly abandon the settlements if it meant the Palestinians would accept Israel’s right to exist. There have been multiple land-for-peace deals offered and rejected.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/11/2024 20:00

“Purspectiveplease · Today 18:52
Zionism is one of the most successful decolonisation projects in history. Virtually the entire Middle East was once an Arabic-speaking, Muslim empire and now there is a tiny corner with a sovereign state which has the language and religion of the indigenous people, not the conquerors. I would say they have successfully fought for independence. Now they just have to defend it!”

…,,,

In this you seem to be suggesting that the returning Jews are the righteous, indigenous people kicking out non-Indigenous, murderous conquerors who had been squatting on their land for two thousand years.

Just because indigenous people, remaining in this land after most of the Jews left in ancient times, took on the religion and language of their conquerors, does not mean they were not indigenous. Over time the people would become a mixture of various incomers/conquerors and the original people.

If the Christian rulers of Spain had not succeeded in expelling the Moors, but the Moors had continued living there up until now, having more and more influence, and spreading or enforcing Islam, you would not assume all the people in Spain were not Spanish but Moors.

Jewish people too would themselves
be a mixture depending on where they were living over the intervening thousands of years, even when they remained Jewish by religion.

In 1878 Palestine 3% of the people were indigenous Jews, 2% were foreign born Jews, 85% were Muslims ( among whom there would have be indigenous people) and 9% Christians ( again these would include indigenous people).

The idea that only the Jews have a right to live in this land, because they are indigenous and Palestinians are somehow not, and that the Israeli Jews are simply righteous returners to their own homes after two thousand years, and are blameless, successful kickers-outer of nasty usurping conquerors - seems mistaken to me.

This land cannot be either an exclusively Jewish nor an exclusively Palestinian homeland now.

What a dreadful predicament.

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 20:20

@Purspectiveplease But the British weren't already living in Ireland, as I've said before most of the British living here were landlords, moved over when things were good, many of them then left of their own accord as they didn't have as many privileges once British Rule was over, it was never their land

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 20:21

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 19:55

Not to my knowledge. My impression is that the majority of Zionists would gladly abandon the settlements if it meant the Palestinians would accept Israel’s right to exist. There have been multiple land-for-peace deals offered and rejected.

In which case you would be wrong, political zionism certainly does include settlement expansion which negates whatever you said about the two state solution.

If someone took a hundred pounds from you, killed your parents, stole your house and then grudgingly offered you back twenty pounds so you don't retaliate would you be happy with that?

JaneJeffer · 12/11/2024 20:22

They already know @Liv999 because they learned history in four different countries 🥸

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 20:30

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 20:21

In which case you would be wrong, political zionism certainly does include settlement expansion which negates whatever you said about the two state solution.

If someone took a hundred pounds from you, killed your parents, stole your house and then grudgingly offered you back twenty pounds so you don't retaliate would you be happy with that?

Because that is what the 'peace for land deals' were. You casually gloss over all the injustices that Palestinians faced at the hands of Israel, for the state of Israel to be formed. It was formed through the oppression of the Palestinians and continues to expand through illegal occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.
You can try to reframe history all you like, zionism was founded on a lie. 'A land for a people, for a people without a land' this lie caused decades of continuous misery.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:41

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 20:20

@Purspectiveplease But the British weren't already living in Ireland, as I've said before most of the British living here were landlords, moved over when things were good, many of them then left of their own accord as they didn't have as many privileges once British Rule was over, it was never their land

That is literally my point. If the land in Ireland never really belonged to the British, then equally, the land is Israel never really belonged to the Arabs. Colonisers are never the rightful owners of the land no matter how long they occupy if for. Israel was always Israel and always rightfully belonged to the Israelis, just as Ireland was always Ireland and always rightfully belonged to the Irish.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:45

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 20:21

In which case you would be wrong, political zionism certainly does include settlement expansion which negates whatever you said about the two state solution.

If someone took a hundred pounds from you, killed your parents, stole your house and then grudgingly offered you back twenty pounds so you don't retaliate would you be happy with that?

Political Zionism (as opposed to religious zionism) is the belief that Israel should exist. I have already given this definition more than once in this thread. This is t the gotcha you seem to think it is.

Auvergne63 · 12/11/2024 20:48

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:41

That is literally my point. If the land in Ireland never really belonged to the British, then equally, the land is Israel never really belonged to the Arabs. Colonisers are never the rightful owners of the land no matter how long they occupy if for. Israel was always Israel and always rightfully belonged to the Israelis, just as Ireland was always Ireland and always rightfully belonged to the Irish.

Israel didn't exist prior to 1948.
I think this article explains the history of the Jewish people up to 1948.
Israel Before the State | My Jewish Learning

Israel Before the State | My Jewish Learning

Before the State.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/israel-before-the-state/

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 20:50

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:41

That is literally my point. If the land in Ireland never really belonged to the British, then equally, the land is Israel never really belonged to the Arabs. Colonisers are never the rightful owners of the land no matter how long they occupy if for. Israel was always Israel and always rightfully belonged to the Israelis, just as Ireland was always Ireland and always rightfully belonged to the Irish.

And my point is you cannot compare the two situations, yes Israel rightfully belongs to the Israelis, and Palestine rightfully belongs to the Palestinians like it or not

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:53

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 20:30

Because that is what the 'peace for land deals' were. You casually gloss over all the injustices that Palestinians faced at the hands of Israel, for the state of Israel to be formed. It was formed through the oppression of the Palestinians and continues to expand through illegal occupation and oppression of the Palestinians.
You can try to reframe history all you like, zionism was founded on a lie. 'A land for a people, for a people without a land' this lie caused decades of continuous misery.

A more accurate analogy would be if someone stole your car, then I stole it from them, then someone else stole it from me, then you stole it back from the 3rd thief. In that case, would you pay me (thief number 2) anything in compensation for your car that I stole from someone else that someone else then stole from me before you finally recovered it? I imagine not. How about I then start murdering your family and getting all of the neighbourhood to help me?

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 20:57

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:45

Political Zionism (as opposed to religious zionism) is the belief that Israel should exist. I have already given this definition more than once in this thread. This is t the gotcha you seem to think it is.

Political zionism is not limited to that very basic belief as you claim to portray. Political zionism includes the belief of increasing settlements and uses zionism as a means to justify it. It is undeniable that zionism was founded on a lie and through the oppression of the indigenous Palestinian population.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:58

Auvergne63 · 12/11/2024 20:48

Israel didn't exist prior to 1948.
I think this article explains the history of the Jewish people up to 1948.
Israel Before the State | My Jewish Learning

Neither did Palestine. They were both part of British Transjordan. And before that they were part of Ottoman Transjordan and before that they were part of a Caliphate, and before that they were part of the Roman Empire. The only sovereign nation (as opposed to a regional HQ of an empire) that has ever existed in Israel was Israel. What point do you think you’re making?

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 21:01

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:53

A more accurate analogy would be if someone stole your car, then I stole it from them, then someone else stole it from me, then you stole it back from the 3rd thief. In that case, would you pay me (thief number 2) anything in compensation for your car that I stole from someone else that someone else then stole from me before you finally recovered it? I imagine not. How about I then start murdering your family and getting all of the neighbourhood to help me?

And so on and so forth, you can try and twist it back historically as far as you want, it doesn't deny that Israel was created on land that was forcibly taken from the majority Palestinian population of that time and till today the state of Israel continues to subjugate the indigenous Palestinians.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 21:01

Liv999 · 12/11/2024 20:50

And my point is you cannot compare the two situations, yes Israel rightfully belongs to the Israelis, and Palestine rightfully belongs to the Palestinians like it or not

I agree with you. I have always been advocating for a 2 state solution. And the way to achieve that is to get Hamas out of power and for the Palestinians to elect a representative who does not have “kill all the Jews and destroy Israel” as a fundamental part of their constitution. The rest of the world should probably stop enabling them with their “from the river to the sea” chanting and demands to globalise the intifada, so that we can get there a bit faster. I can’t wait for that to happen.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 21:06

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 21:01

And so on and so forth, you can try and twist it back historically as far as you want, it doesn't deny that Israel was created on land that was forcibly taken from the majority Palestinian population of that time and till today the state of Israel continues to subjugate the indigenous Palestinians.

Most Palestinians are Arabs. Arabs are not the indigenous people in Israel, Jews are. Arabs come from the Arabian peninsular and invaded Israel during the Arab conquest, a violent invasion which attempted to erase the language, culture and religion of the indigenous people. You can’t really get around that one.
Forcibly taking land from anyone is obvious unpleasant, but it was no worse to forcibly take Israel from the occupying Arabs than it was to forcibly take Ireland for the occupying British.

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 21:07

Whatsinanamehey · 12/11/2024 20:57

Political zionism is not limited to that very basic belief as you claim to portray. Political zionism includes the belief of increasing settlements and uses zionism as a means to justify it. It is undeniable that zionism was founded on a lie and through the oppression of the indigenous Palestinian population.

Do you believe in a 2 state solution? If you do, then you’re also a Zionist. If you don’t, then I’m curious as to how you imagine the future could look.

Auvergne63 · 12/11/2024 21:09

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 20:58

Neither did Palestine. They were both part of British Transjordan. And before that they were part of Ottoman Transjordan and before that they were part of a Caliphate, and before that they were part of the Roman Empire. The only sovereign nation (as opposed to a regional HQ of an empire) that has ever existed in Israel was Israel. What point do you think you’re making?

Read the article and come back and tell me that Palestine didn't exist. You might want to also explain why Palestinian coins were found as early as 66 CE.
City Coins of Palestine

City Coins of Palestine

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/city-coins-of-palestine

Purspectiveplease · 12/11/2024 21:25

Auvergne63 · 12/11/2024 21:09

Read the article and come back and tell me that Palestine didn't exist. You might want to also explain why Palestinian coins were found as early as 66 CE.
City Coins of Palestine

Did you read that article? It is confusing because the meaning of the word Palestine has changed over time. In this article, they’re using “Palestinian” to mean the era after the Roman invasion when the Romans renamed Israel after the Philistines, the enemies of the Jews. The modern descendants of the Philistines are no longer traceable. The modern understanding of the word (Arab Muslims and usually also Arab Christians) is pretty recent. Even in living memory, during the era of British Transjordan, Jews in Israel were called Palestinians. Golda Meir had a Palestinian passport. The Palestinian flag was white and blue with a yellow Star of David then.

ScrollingLeaves · 12/11/2024 22:02

The Jews in Israel are not a pure indigenous race going back to their ancestors two thousand years unchanged while other people (Palestinians, say) living in this land are all modern invaders.

If the Phillistines of the Bible all died out or were absorbed and no longer exist as modern Palestinians ( like Italians have no right to think of themselves as descendants of Romans, Greeks descendants of Ancient Greece) etc, - are modern Jews, who have lived and married ‘foreigners’ all over the world so different?

Not that it is really relevant, but in light of you seemingly arguing that there is an exclusive right to occupy the land, which is owed to Jewish people because of their ancestors over two thousand years ago, perhaps read this 2015 Haaretz science article ( without links but it can be found in archive):

Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots
Jews break down into three genetic groups, all of which have Middle Eastern origins – which are shared with the Palestinians and Druze.

Confronted by the violence sweeping over Israel, it can be easy to overlook the things that Jews and Palestinians share: a deep attachment to the same sliver of contested land, a shared appetite for hummus, a common tradition of descent from the patriarch Abraham, and, as scientific research shows - a common genetic ancestry, as well.

Several major studies published in the past five years attest to these ancient hereditary links. At the forefront of these efforts are two researchers: Harry Ostrer, professor of pediatrics and pathology at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx, New York, and Karl Skorecki, director of medical and research development at the Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa. Back in June 2010, and within two days of each other, the two scientists and their research teams published extensive analyses of the genetic origins of the Jewish people and their Near East ancestry.

“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012.
“Karl and I are good friends,” Ostrer told Haaretz by telephone from New York. “We used somewhat different analytical methods—there’s no claim there for superiority, or one side versus the other.” In their results, as well, “there was really very little difference at all.”

Research on “Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era” published in The American Journal of Human Genetics, sampled 652,000 gene variants from each of 237 unrelated individuals from seven Jewish populations: Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi. These sequences were then compared with reference samples from non-Jews drawn from The Human Genome Diversity Project, a global database of genetic information gathered from populations across the world.

Each of the Jewish populations, they found, “formed its own distinctive cluster,” indicating their shared ancestry and “relative genetic isolation.”

Ostrer’s team also identified two major groups of Jews: Middle Eastern Jews (Iranian and Iraqi) and European/Syrian Jews. The split between these two groups of Jews occurred some 2,500 years ago.

Cousins with the Druze and French
Both groups of Jews shared ancestry with contemporary Middle Eastern and Southern European populations. The closest genetic relatives of the Middle Eastern Jews are Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians. The closest genetic relatives of the European group of Jews are Northern Italians, followed by Sardinians and French.

In a 2012 study, Ostrer identified North African Jews as a third major group. In Skorecki’s study on the genome -wide structure of the Jewish people published in the journal Nature, he and his fellow researchers sampled tens of thousands of genetic variants from the genomes of 121 individuals hailing from 14 Jewish Diaspora communities, and compared these variants with samples drawn from 1,166 individuals from 69 Old World non-Jewish populations.
They found that Jews from the Caucasus (Azerbaijan and Georgia), the Middle East (Iran and Iraq) North Africa (Morocco) and Sephardi and Ashkenazi communities, as well as Samaritans, form a “tight cluster” that overlaps with Israeli Druze.

This, the authors write, “is consistent with an ancestral Levantine contribution to much of contemporary Jewry.”

In addition, a “compact cluster” of Yemenite Jews “overlaps primarily with Bedouins but also with Saudi individuals.” Ethiopian and Indian Jews are more closely related to their own neighboring, host populations.

Middle East origins in European Jews
Further evidence for the Middle Eastern origins of Ashjenazi Jews came from a study published in 2014: In that research, which appeared in Nature Communications, a team led by Shai Carmi of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem sequenced the complete genomes of 128 people of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. Their analysis revealed that the Ashkenazi Jewish population is “an even mix” of European and Middle Eastern ancestral populations—suggesting, as Carmi writes on the web site of The Ashkenazi Genome Consortium (TAGC), “a sex-biased process, where, say, Middle-Eastern Jewish men married European non-Jewish women.”

Are these genetic ties between Jews, Palestinians, Bedouin, and Druze important in a contemporary context? “It doesn’t matter to me personally,” Skorecki says, “since I think that global human identity supersedes all other considerations.”

“We want to know who we are and where we came from,” Ostrer, who is now studying cancer risks among Ashkenazi Jews and Northern Israeli Druze populations, sums up. Even so, shared ancestry doesn’t necessarily imply a special bond. As Ostrer notes, citing the Biblical tale of Cain and Abel, “the fact that people are related to one another doesn’t prevent their developing extreme hostility to one another.”

Lalaloveya · 12/11/2024 22:04

There's no point engaging with the derailer.

Even if their posts about Ireland weren't completely stupid, which they are, their posts about Palestine are offensive. Any poster who completely ignores the wrongs Israel has committed, up to and including ethnic cleansing and genocide, isn't here for debate. It's a waste of energy.

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