How many more will Israel kill?

[Whatsinanamehey]

Nearly a 100 people reportedly killed in the north of Gaza today from a strike in Beit Lahia. Many of the dead are small children with some of the footage the most shocking I have seen. Dead children still trapped under the rubble and countless more injured. How can they continue to kill like this? How can this still be justified as self defence? How can such callous disregard for human life be condoned?

@dairydebris , do you mean anti Islamism?

Radical Islamism.
Your reply concerned me that I had used an incorrect term so I looked it up and it seems Fundamentalism refers to believing in the literal truth of a religious text. Apologies if I got that wrong, more than happy to be corrected.

Against Hamas, Isis, the Taliban, Boko Haram etc That radical, outspoken, violent far fringes of Islam. That's what I find abhorrent.

No worries! The majority of reasonable people (including Muslims and including people concerned about the suffering of people in Palestine, Lebanon and Israel) find those groups abhorrent. They are oppressive extremists and terrorists who promote ideologies very far from the actual core principles of Islam. Many Muslims want them to be prevented from harming others and for them to be brought to justice. Sadly, many people see them as being what Islam is, rather than seeing Islam in the fellow mums and dads on the school run, the kids playing in parks, the ordinary people who live their lives with varying degrees of practice (just like in Christianity and other faiths) and diversity of opinion and culture. The media often use Islamic when it would be more accurate to say Islamist/Islamism (which is an expansionist, aggressive politicisation of Islam and is not mainstream). A lot of the grassroots work being done to challenge the oppression of the Taliban and others now is actually being done by Muslim-led groups, Muslim and inter-faith organisations and Muslim individuals, often at significant personal cost.

Nobody likes the radical Islamist extremists apart from other extremists and people who don't know enough about them to realise that they're deeply, deeply awful.

Any radical religion is inhumane. Absolutely any extreme belief is indeed extreme. Be it religious, nationalist, or some ideology.

I remember someone asked ChatGPT to analyse religious books of main religions. You wouldn't guess which religion has a more violent text. (Spoiler alert: not Islam).

But also, the statement "there will be many Palestinians left" make it sound as if they are replaceable.

I think if England was being bombed right now at the same scale that Gaza is, with the same ratio of deaths and injuries and somebody across the globe said "don't worry! There will be still be many English left", we would not find it very comforting. It's very blasé and dismissive of Palestinian life, which is the result of the constant demonisation and dehumanisation.

err... AI is a long way off from accurate analysis or critical thinking.

Or on a similar note, if someone commented that Israel should not be moaning about being attacked because there are still many many Israelis left and after the war there will still be many many Israelis left, i don't believe it would be considered acceptable to say by the same poster/s.

It's a whole lot better than some of the justifications Israel and their apologists use for the continued massacre in Gaza.

No it won’t. Israel has been killing and brutalising Palestinians for decades. It only stops when netenyahu want it to stop. I don’t see them stopping, ever.

edited to remove reference to Israel. I know plenty of Israelis who are absolutely sickened by this slaughter.

I absolutely agree that any extremism in any religion is dangerous.
But … “someone asked ChatGPT to analyse religious books of main religions. You wouldn't guess which religion has a more violent text”
This is a bizarre point.
Violence is sometimes referred to in religious texts as a historical description of a terrible event ( eg the crucifixion) It doesn’t mean the violence referred to is a guide of how one should live!
Eg The book of Apocalypse is full of terrifying violent imagery - it’s a prophetic work describing the possible end of the world. It’s not a guide of how one should behave… quite the reverse .

When people say 'I'm afraid of the islamic fundamentalists' when in fact they refer to violent resistance when peaceful negotiations have not yielded results, that tells me those people have been misled about the religion. In that case a basic text analysis is an ok start.

@Limesodaagain I think @myearthisflat may be referring to a number of comparative analyses carried out by fairly advanced (at the time) AI and analytic software.

The findings were interesting, and were consistent in finding that references to themes of violence were highest in the Old Testament (5.3% in one analysis, for example) and lowest in the Qur'an (2.1% in the same analysis), and references to themes of forgiveness were highest in the Qur'an (6.3% in that analysis) and lowest in the Old Testament (0.7% in that analysis).

However, there are limitations to such analyses and to what can be interpreted from the findings.

For example...

Most comparative analyses have been done using translations rather than original texts - this brings in potential confounders relating to the accuracy of translation and the selection process for the translations used.

Violence is part of our world, so it makes sense for there to be references to it in texts aiming to provide guidance on how to live in the world. A reference to violence could be related to self-defence, or rules of conduct in war, or explicit calls to commit aggression, or allegorical/symbolic. That nuance doesn't appear to be considered in most analyses.

Different texts may have different underlying principles for the same word. For example, some people believe spiritual forgiveness is granted on a personal basis with a plea for forgiveness, while others believe that it is only granted after reparations are made to whoever was wronged by the act for which forgiveness is being sought, while others believe ritual processes are required, etc... A simple count of references won't include the nuances of what the words actually mean in the text in which they are written.

What "violent resistance" are you talking about?

Yes - I agree with this. I think my point was that AI is inadequate as a means of assessing violent references in religious texts as your last sentence neatly explains.
I think the poster’s more important point was that any religion can have dangerous extremists.
This is why education is so important- any religious text can be wilfully misinterpreted ( or accidentally misunderstood ) by people with their own agenda . We certainly have that in Christianity.

Are you saying that Hamas isn't Radical Islamism but instead it's violent resistance? And that my seeing it as RI and being afraid of it shows that I've misunderstood Islamic texts?
I'm finding it difficult to understand your meaning here?

Have all o the hostages taken on 7th Oct 2023 all been released yet?

How come people don’t say this about Ukraine?

@AccountCreateUsername of course Israelis are horrified by the slaughter. They are also horrified by Oct 7.
You think giving back the hostages would make no difference? Try it. See what happens

@bellinisurge if only I had that within my power, they would all be home and safe. Sadly, I don’t hold out any hope for that.

This slaughter has to stop. There is no justification for what is happening. It’s indefensible and I don’t think that an end to this slaughter and mass movement of Gazans is in sight. We’re witnessing a genocide in real time. It’s sickening and I don’t for a second believe this is about getting hostages home safely.

I believe Netanyahu is a self-serving criminal who holds Palestinians, international law and Israelis in contempt. What a legacy…

@dairydebris I think there is a significant difference between resistance (including armed resistance) and terrorism. In general terms, when people think about armed resistance, it's primarily about direct struggles against oppressing/occupying/invading forces, but terrorism is primarily directed against civilian groups not posing imminent risks of harm, with the purpose of causing harm and fear to others. What Hamas (and those who followed their lead) did on October 7th was terrorism - they attacked civilian populations engaged in ordinary civilian activities, people who were just living their lives, and used tactics intended to spread fear and distress as well as causing great harm to the victims.

The wrongs done to Palestinians prior to October 7th do not justify the atrocities committed by Hamas. Nor do the atrocities of Hamas justify the atrocities being committed against Palestinians and Lebanese people by Israeli forces.

There's many who believe it is justified, yes there are some who are horrified but there's many who think it is just 'self defence' and therefore acceptable.

Some Israelis are horrified by the slaughter and some are taking boat trips to see Gaza and blocking aid trucks and organizing resettle Gaza conferences.

What is your vision of what happens once the hostages are handed back?

Hopefully it is that Israel withdraw and allow Palestine a two state solution with no military interference from them. Allow them rights to their water and to move freely. Allow those in the West Bank to live peacefully without fear of settlers who are supported by the IDF attacking their schools and their homes.

Did Natanyahu support radical islamism? Why did you he do that??
Do extremists use different religious texts? If not, than your reading might imply that ALL muslims would have radical tendencies.

Trying to understand does not necessarily mean approve or support. It's a way to see the cause of a problem. Only then you can hope to see a solution.