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Conflict in the Middle East

How many more will Israel kill?

337 replies

Whatsinanamehey · 29/10/2024 15:20

Nearly a 100 people reportedly killed in the north of Gaza today from a strike in Beit Lahia. Many of the dead are small children with some of the footage the most shocking I have seen. Dead children still trapped under the rubble and countless more injured. How can they continue to kill like this? How can this still be justified as self defence? How can such callous disregard for human life be condoned?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
NautilusLionfish · 29/10/2024 20:11

Whatsinanamehey · 29/10/2024 19:49

The US's reaction to today's massacre

The US - Israel's key ally - has described the attack in the town of Beit Lahiya as a "horrifying incident with a horrifying result" and said officials have reached out to the Israeli government to find out what happened.
State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller added he is aware of reports that children are among the dead.
He said officials have "made clear we want to know exactly what happened, how you could have a result that produces, according to reports, dozens of children dead, and we don't yet know the answer to that question".

Oh if you believe that what the US puts in public means anything they I can turn your £20 into £2 million.

Whatsinanamehey · 29/10/2024 20:18

NautilusLionfish · 29/10/2024 20:11

Oh if you believe that what the US puts in public means anything they I can turn your £20 into £2 million.

Oh I don't believe it at all, but I know they only put out these statements when it's so horrific that even they can't publicly try and ignore it. They are forced to release these statements so they can try and look like they give a shit.

OP posts:
dairydebris · 29/10/2024 20:22

Daftasabroom · 29/10/2024 20:04

Oh c'mon. Your "evidence" includes an ad asking for donations to promote Israeli propaganda. It questions whether there is even a Palestinian people. It questions why the Arab population of Palestine (no such thing as Palestinians remember) weren't as overjoyed as the Jews by the UN plan in 1947.

I really couldn't stomach much more of your overtly racist, Islamophobic lies after that.

Edited

Quite a lot of straw man again from you.

It points out that the first map implies that all of Israel was once Palestinian land, but back then all that land was known as Palestine regardless of the ethnicity of the people living there. It's deliberately misleading, as anyone with a passing acquaintance with history knows.

I've no idea what part of what I said you feel was racist. But it's absolutely the usual disregarding of history and the terrible use of vocabulary I'm used to seeing on these threads.

Gummybear23 · 29/10/2024 20:24

bellinisurge · 29/10/2024 15:31

It's horrendous. Give the hostages back. It ends.

No it won't.

Scirocco · 29/10/2024 20:35

dairydebris · 29/10/2024 18:48

I disagree. I think it would be the end of this war. I think international and internal pressure would be such that the war would have to stop. Who would they be fighting, if Hamas surrendered and admitted Israel's right to exist? Serious question- do you believe Israel would just keep bombing until there's no civilians left? You honestly believe that? I don't.
I hope we'll see soon. This war won't continue for ever. And there will still be many, many Palestinians alive. Some in Isreal. Some in Jordan, some in the West Bank. Because it's not genocide. It's war. It's awful. I hope it ends soon.

I note you're not mentioning Palestinians being alive in Gaza...

Daftasabroom · 29/10/2024 20:39

dairydebris · 29/10/2024 20:22

Quite a lot of straw man again from you.

It points out that the first map implies that all of Israel was once Palestinian land, but back then all that land was known as Palestine regardless of the ethnicity of the people living there. It's deliberately misleading, as anyone with a passing acquaintance with history knows.

I've no idea what part of what I said you feel was racist. But it's absolutely the usual disregarding of history and the terrible use of vocabulary I'm used to seeing on these threads.

The history portrayed in your article is pro-Israeli lies, and you know it.

Martymcfly24 · 29/10/2024 20:58

Daftasabroom · 29/10/2024 20:39

The history portrayed in your article is pro-Israeli lies, and you know it.

Course they do but while we are discussing that we are not discussing the thread title which is "How many more will Israeli kill?"
A question I fear the answer to .

dairydebris · 29/10/2024 21:15

Scirocco · 29/10/2024 20:35

I note you're not mentioning Palestinians being alive in Gaza...

An oversight, my apologies. I think there will still be many, many Gazan civilians left alive after this war.
I asked you a question though, and I specifically asked you as I always think your comments worth listening to... do you really think Israel would continue to bomb Gaza if

Hamas surrendered, admitted Israel's right to exist and returned the hostages?

Whatsinanamehey · 29/10/2024 21:24

Hamas surrendered, admitted Israel's right to exist and returned the hostages?

This is so one sided it's unbelievable. There's only one side that you have expectations from in order for over 2 million Gazans to live without being bombed every single day. Your entire question is based on a premise that only one side has done wrong and only one therefore should concede. What about the Palestinians right to a state? What about all the Palestinians who are far greater in number held unjustly in Israeli prisons/torture centres? What about the Palestinians right to live free from Israeli attacks and settler violence? All which has been conveniently ignored for decades prior to Oct 7th by the same people who indignantly make demands now without acknowledgement of any of this.

OP posts:
1457bloom · 29/10/2024 21:25

I am ashamed to be British given the governments support for the atrocities and war crimes.

Whatsinanamehey · 29/10/2024 21:28

1457bloom · 29/10/2024 21:25

I am ashamed to be British given the governments support for the atrocities and war crimes.

Same, how can we support a government who stands on the side of a country committing a genocide. They need to stop their empty words and take action.

OP posts:
ssd · 29/10/2024 21:44

The hostages families are disgusted at the lack of any actual planning to get their loved ones back, they feel completely let down by their government and who can blame them.

ssd · 29/10/2024 21:46

And we in the UK feel completely let down by the present and past governments who refuse to hold Israel to account.

Scirocco · 29/10/2024 21:47

dairydebris · 29/10/2024 21:15

An oversight, my apologies. I think there will still be many, many Gazan civilians left alive after this war.
I asked you a question though, and I specifically asked you as I always think your comments worth listening to... do you really think Israel would continue to bomb Gaza if

Hamas surrendered, admitted Israel's right to exist and returned the hostages?

Yes, I think the campaign would continue regardless of what Hamas might hypothetically offer, unless such an offer is part of an agreed ceasefire with external oversight.

Politicians in key positions and more generally, people in relevant positions within key agencies and the IDF, and 'settlers' have all clearly expressed their intentions and support for "Nakba 2024", "total victory", etc. The main political figures involved have plenty to gain from continuing. We're talking here about individuals who have track records of exploiting and manipulating situations to suit their own agendas rather than the interests of ordinary people, who have been open about their intentions to prevent any realisation of a two-state solution or recognition of a Palestinian state with rights of self-determination. These are the same people who have overseen rapid expansion of the efforts to not just occupy but annex land in the West Bank, and who are openly advocating for the vision of a 'Greater Israel' in which Palestine and other countries no longer exist. These are not people likely to stop of their own volition when they can see how well (in their eyes) their efforts are going.

The current Israeli government and IDF have an aggressive, expansionist mentality, fuelled by racial and religious factors, as well as individuals being deployed in combat who are experiencing understandable trauma, fear and anger. I do not believe that they will choose to stop until "the job is done", and what that looks like will likely evolve to meet the needs or desires of the men in power.

Hamas should release hostages unconditionally because it's the closest to the right thing that they could do (the right thing would have been to not carry out terrorist atrocities and take hostages in the first place). But they won't. They're terrorists and the hostages are pretty much the last bargaining chip (in their eyes) that they have. They will want something, and that something could be negotiated to lead to a ceasefire and peace process. But they will be very aware that Israeli forces are very unlikely to stop without some form of external pressure or process.

Without some external intervention, I and many others remain concerned that this campaign will continue until there is no Palestine, through a combination of deaths, displacement and forced assimilation. A campaign of genocide does not require a population to be entirely destroyed, and the percentages of populations killed in Palestine are now considered by many to be in the range identified in other conflicts in which geocides were recognised - that, in the context of openly pro-genocide comments from Israeli figures, means many people consider this to be a genocide.

Daftasabroom · 29/10/2024 22:45

Martymcfly24 · 29/10/2024 20:58

Course they do but while we are discussing that we are not discussing the thread title which is "How many more will Israeli kill?"
A question I fear the answer to .

Quite.

I don't think Israel have anymore of a plan for the short-term than Hamas did over a year ago. It is little more than retribution now, but clearly there are significant elements in Israel who will take of advantage of any opportunity to expand ever further.

There is of course sympathy for the remaining hostages of 7/10 and their families but for the nation of Israel it seems the well has run dry. The slaughter of Palestinians is just too horrific, so massively disproportional, completely incongruous. This appalling chapter in the history of the region has brought home to many people across the world the injustices Israel has inflicted on the Palestinians.

Arguably, Israel only exists because of the Holocaust, perhaps as an apology by the west. If Israel continues on it's present course, just as sympathy for recent atrocities has waned, so might the guilt that western nations have felt for the Holocaust. If Israel loses that very deep rooted support it could find itself increasingly isolated.

Israel is treading a very fine line.

Wonderlust233 · 29/10/2024 22:50

It's honestly so heartbreaking. These poor children who have suffered endlessly all their lives. I can't imagine what they are going through.

The US/UK have done this for centuries, we are experts in colonising. This is a US war to take land in the middle East and it always has been. The US need an Israel in the middle East for their own benefit. Most of the funding of this genocide comes from them as do most of the wars in the world.

I wish the UK was closer to European nations that America.

Daftasabroom · 29/10/2024 22:54

Wonderlust233 · 29/10/2024 22:50

It's honestly so heartbreaking. These poor children who have suffered endlessly all their lives. I can't imagine what they are going through.

The US/UK have done this for centuries, we are experts in colonising. This is a US war to take land in the middle East and it always has been. The US need an Israel in the middle East for their own benefit. Most of the funding of this genocide comes from them as do most of the wars in the world.

I wish the UK was closer to European nations that America.

I'm not so sure the US needs Israel as much any more. US power itself is not what it used to be.

tobeornottobe1 · 29/10/2024 22:59

All them poor children slaughtered by Israel , bombed and crushed to death. What was their crime 😢

Liv999 · 29/10/2024 23:09

Whatsinanamehey · 29/10/2024 21:24

Hamas surrendered, admitted Israel's right to exist and returned the hostages?

This is so one sided it's unbelievable. There's only one side that you have expectations from in order for over 2 million Gazans to live without being bombed every single day. Your entire question is based on a premise that only one side has done wrong and only one therefore should concede. What about the Palestinians right to a state? What about all the Palestinians who are far greater in number held unjustly in Israeli prisons/torture centres? What about the Palestinians right to live free from Israeli attacks and settler violence? All which has been conveniently ignored for decades prior to Oct 7th by the same people who indignantly make demands now without acknowledgement of any of this.

Hear hear 👏

Mlanket · 29/10/2024 23:11

I think they will continue doing exactly as they like but if anyone knows what would lead to US/UK withdrawing their support of Israel I would be interested to know.

I don’t think there is anything. The war on terror supposedly killed 1m civilians when you add in indirect deaths.

mollyfolk · 29/10/2024 23:56

dairydebris · 29/10/2024 18:32

I don't know why people on here keep insisting that the US and the UK 'make' Israel stop? It's not a playground at school. Israel is a sovereign nation. It does what it needs to to protect it's security. No one tells it what to do.

Hamas get stop this war any day by returning the hostages ( or their bodies ), surrendering, and admitting Israel's right to exist...

Still waiting for one of you to start that thread if you care so much about Palestinian lives....

It's important that the international community condemns the actions of the Israeli authorities because it should matter when the rules of war are broken, it should matter when human rights are not protected. If the US and to a lesser extent the UK held Israel to account it would ultimately keep us all safer. Now we are in a situation where it's fine for some countries to break international law.

Netanyahu doesn't care about the hostages. Look at this forum of hostage families. Like the Palestinians, they are victims of both Hamas and the Israeli authorities.

MrsSkylerWhite · 29/10/2024 23:58

As many as it possibly can.

mollyfolk · 30/10/2024 00:09

@dairydebris

I hope we'll see soon. This war won't continue for ever. And there will still be many, many Palestinians alive. Some in Isreal. Some in Jordan, some in the West Bank. Because it's not genocide. It's war. It's awful. I hope it ends soon.

Do you not think there will be Palestinians left in Gaza then?

If the hostages were released it would not be over. Netanyahu was clear at the start that one of the aims was "to crush Hamas" . An ill defined goal that will allow the war to continue indefinitely.

You know Israel don't have to kill every single last Palestinian for it to be considered a genocide. They've destroyed the hospitals, schools, homes. They've specifically targeted bakeries and food production. Most of the population are now internally displaced. And now they've cut off the aid. More deaths will come from illness and starvation than bombs in the end.

But there isn't really any hope that the war will end soon. Not sure where you are getting your hope from.

mollyfolk · 30/10/2024 00:13

@dairydebris

I don't care if it's pro Israeli if it's true. Do you?

You could do with spending some time trying to recognise propaganda.

dairydebris · 30/10/2024 07:49

Scirocco · 29/10/2024 21:47

Yes, I think the campaign would continue regardless of what Hamas might hypothetically offer, unless such an offer is part of an agreed ceasefire with external oversight.

Politicians in key positions and more generally, people in relevant positions within key agencies and the IDF, and 'settlers' have all clearly expressed their intentions and support for "Nakba 2024", "total victory", etc. The main political figures involved have plenty to gain from continuing. We're talking here about individuals who have track records of exploiting and manipulating situations to suit their own agendas rather than the interests of ordinary people, who have been open about their intentions to prevent any realisation of a two-state solution or recognition of a Palestinian state with rights of self-determination. These are the same people who have overseen rapid expansion of the efforts to not just occupy but annex land in the West Bank, and who are openly advocating for the vision of a 'Greater Israel' in which Palestine and other countries no longer exist. These are not people likely to stop of their own volition when they can see how well (in their eyes) their efforts are going.

The current Israeli government and IDF have an aggressive, expansionist mentality, fuelled by racial and religious factors, as well as individuals being deployed in combat who are experiencing understandable trauma, fear and anger. I do not believe that they will choose to stop until "the job is done", and what that looks like will likely evolve to meet the needs or desires of the men in power.

Hamas should release hostages unconditionally because it's the closest to the right thing that they could do (the right thing would have been to not carry out terrorist atrocities and take hostages in the first place). But they won't. They're terrorists and the hostages are pretty much the last bargaining chip (in their eyes) that they have. They will want something, and that something could be negotiated to lead to a ceasefire and peace process. But they will be very aware that Israeli forces are very unlikely to stop without some form of external pressure or process.

Without some external intervention, I and many others remain concerned that this campaign will continue until there is no Palestine, through a combination of deaths, displacement and forced assimilation. A campaign of genocide does not require a population to be entirely destroyed, and the percentages of populations killed in Palestine are now considered by many to be in the range identified in other conflicts in which geocides were recognised - that, in the context of openly pro-genocide comments from Israeli figures, means many people consider this to be a genocide.

Thankyou for your considered response.

When I have hope, which isn't every day, I hope that the October 26 election will bring in more moderate voices. I don't know a single person who supports Netanyahu.

I don't believe there is any chance of moderation from Hamas. Obviously, they don't hold elections. Quieter voices are necessary for any solution for the longer term.

I believe the average Israeli and the average Palestinian both want peace.

I'm aware I come across stridently Pro Israeli here. But the truth is I'm actually just really, really anti Islamic Fundamentalism.