Hamas leader Sinwar dead

[Toomanywars]

Reported just on Sky

@Whatsinanamehey
@Allthatwegotisthispalebluedot

"Common sense and logic seems to have gone out of the window for some posters this evening."

I know what you mean but it always brings me back to the quote "If you vote right wing then you have no heart but if vote left wing then you have no brain ".

But @Allthatwegotisthispalebluedot I am always happy to help:

OK so we all agree that dropping two atomic bombs on Japan led to the death of between 150k and 250k mostly civilian Japanese and this was a terrible thing.

However two months prior to this the Allies suffered 80k casualties taking Okinawa and Japan suffered 100k military and 150k civilian casualties.

With Japan refusing to surrender the only next option would be to invade Japan itself where it was expected the military and civilian casualties to go into the millions.

So yes 150k to 250k deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible but it was the less terrible option compared to massively greater casualties if Japan itself had been invaded.

But true.

@Birdscratch

"If external aid workers handle the distribution in the short term and look to involve as many Palestinian women as possible in the political decision making process and the distribution of aid in the long term it will cut corruption and
ensure that the needs of children are prioritised. It’s worked in countries all over the world."

One of the most logical and sensible suggestions I have seen on these threads for quite a while.

It’s derogatory

I agree. All this „they will remember for generations to come“ won’t help anyone, least of all the Palestinians.

Here we have the double speak of Israel action writ large.
Many use this argument" So yes 150k to 250k deaths at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible but it was the less terrible option compared to massively greater casualties if Japan itself had been invaded."

but when Nihon Hidankyo Hiroshima Nobel peace prize winners compare their experiences to Gaza children - well Israel gets all hurty feelings and
Nobel winning Hiroshima survivor's Gaza comparison angers Israel | Middle East Eye

There will be hate and mistrust on both sides to some extent and it is only natural, i don't think anyone can berate either for that. It doesn't mean they all want the war to continue though.

Another example of moving forward is Rwanda. The genocidal massacre was relatively recent, and the killing itself was often intensely brutal and personal - not death from the skies but your neighbours with machetes.

I think what most people beliebe is that the only thing that will heal Palestinians is being free from their oppressors once and for all. No more Israeli control, no more Israeli threats, no more Israeli theft, no more Israeli violence. You can't forgive someone and move on if their knee is still on your neck.

but when Nihon Hidankyo Hiroshima Nobel peace prize winners compare their experiences to Gaza children - well Israel gets all hurty feelings

Actually I don't disagree with the comparison. Japan is another nation that attacked first, and brought massive suffering to their civilian population by doing so and by refusing to surrender.

I think what most people beliebe is that the only thing that will heal Palestinians is being free from their oppressors once and for all. No more Israeli control, no more Israeli threats, no more Israeli theft, no more Israeli violence. You can't forgive someone and move on if they are still hurting you.

I don't disagree but really that needs to come from the Palestinian side as well - it's hugely disingenious to pretend that there are no rockets or terrorist attacks.

@Silence1 one thing you learn very quickly about Israeli officials, members of government, leaders etc is they really don't handle any sort of criticism very well at all.

If there is a road map to peace here it's not entirely a clear one.

Firstly I think Hamas and it's supporters within Gaza are going to be first disorientated but then vengeful. As far as combatants go this is an immense humiliation for some Gazans and there will be a wish not to pursue peace as it looks like defeat and surrender.

The problem is a power vacuum where even if Hamas unravels there will be a group with a similar ideology willing to take its place unless people aren't careful.

If the US and Israel take this opportunity iof a political vacuum to try and secure a peacefire then they have to ensure a new Palestinian government can not be subverted by Hamas mark 2 which will in my opinion arise.

We had a Muslim woman and a Coptic Christian woman handing out sweeties together at the school gate today. Not because they support Netanyahu but because they are glad sinwar is dead. They know he brought nothing but death and destruction to Gaza. They know this was never about Gaza but about the elimination of Israel from the map. They handed out sweeties because they see his death as the biggest advancement towards peace in the past year. They did the same when Nasrallah died. They know that continuously waging war with Israel and trying to commit 7 Oct over and over again will never lead to peace. I wouldn’t discount the possibility that there is a road to peace here.

And of course the division of Germany into east and west, the division of families by the Berlin wall, the deaths of those trying to escape the east & the notorious stasi.

That works either way. No one is blameless here. Neither side can accuse the other while remaining Lilly white. And I find the one sidedness really disturbing.

October 7th wasn’t justified. Bombings since then by Israel not okay. Bombings from Hamas, Hezbollah and Lebanon/Iran not okay etc.

EVERY life no matter Gazan, Israeli, Lebanese is precious. EVERY one. Not just the side you choose to support.

Umm I think the German Jews were driven from their homes….

I also don’t get where PP is getting
“Germans were not driven from their homes” from.
Germany did lose territories after World War II:

“(…) the German territories lost with the post-World War II Potsdam Agreement were either almost exclusively inhabited by Germans before 1945 (…), mixed German–Polish with a German majority (…), or mixed German–Czech with a German majority.

Virtually the entire German population of the territories that did not flee voluntarily in the face of the Red Army advance of 1945, was violently expelled to Germany, with their possessions being looted and stolen.”

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Former_eastern_territories_of_Germany

I occasionally wonder if the German state played the long game for European dominance since they have the greatest influence in the EU. Diplomacy and soft power is certainly preferable to bombs and bullets.

I find the thinly veiled racism on this thread really distasteful. There is no reason to believe Palestinians are less capable of peace, less inclined to rational thought or more filled with hate than any other people. There have been horrific tragedies throughout history and they don't all lead to terrorism. To imply that Palestinian's have no choice but to become terrorists is ignorant in the extreme. Hopefully without the radicalising influence of Hamas, a more moderate voice will fill the void. Without the radicalisation from school and throughout life, and the threat of violence from Hamas for not following the party line, I hope that we will see Palestine flourish into a peaceful democracy.

I hope this too. I hope that more than anything, in fact.

I just don’t know that over 42,000 dead was the most likely way of achieving that.

It was around 10 million Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia, Romania & Poland and more people had to move in other places too. Millions. I think people forget how ravaged many parts of Europe were by the second world war.

I was SO happy when I heard the evil monster had been killed. Just read about his history. And the same goes for the other Hamas leaders.

One the other hand, Israel will go ahead and continue it's illegal takeover and gradual ethnic cleansing of the West Bank regardless. When they do with Gaza is very much TBD.

My point was not to say that this was the best method. I'm not a military expert, I couldn't possibly know. But this is by no means the first time civilians have suffered in history and history shows us that, normally, people come through tragedy without becoming terrorists. So lets not pretend that Palestinians are less capabale of that than everyone else. They are not automatically going to reject peace. It seems like killing a radicalising leader might help deradicalise the population, or at least clear the way for someone who wants peace to lead the nation in a new direction. I am optimistic that this is a big step in the right direction.

It was extremely stupid of Israel to release his last moments though. Another spectacular PR fail. All this time they have been telling the world and the Palestinians that Sinwar is using them as human shields and he hides in comfort underground with hostages as shields too whilst they suffer on top. His final moments show him as a fighter for the Palestinians. Why did they show it? Doesn't anybody in the PR team discuss and approve things before they broadcast such footage? Didn't anyone consider the implicatiojs of releasing the footage before they did? I did wonder this last night and saw this morning that many news outlets and political commentators have picked up on the same points.

*implications