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Conflict in the Middle East

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19
gingergran · 01/10/2024 17:58

@mouthpipette i know because I am typing this whilst sitting in a bomb shelter whilst sirens are going off non stop because of rocket attacks from Lebanon and Iran and not for the first time.

herecomesautumn · 01/10/2024 17:58

Aysegull · 01/10/2024 16:27

Israel invaded Lebanon so that Israelis near the border can return to their homes.

Oh the irony.

The whole world stood by whilst Israel killed thousands of innocent Palestinians, under the pretence of finding the hostages. It gave Israel a free pass to invade another country, and get away with it.

But yes, me find that disgraceful and supporting the innocent Palestinians makes me anti semitic.

How do you feel about the Palestinians who weren't "innocent"?

BillySnuz · 01/10/2024 17:59

Are you ok @SometimesCalmPerson? Because you don’t seem like you’re ok.

Firstly, a couple of questions for you. What language do Israelis speak, and where does it come from? (Answer: Hebrew - Ancient Israel. Hebrew has its origins in the Semantic language group known as the Canaanite group, which has its written records dating back to the second millennium BCE).

Now answer this question: what language do Palestinians speak and where does that language come from? (Answer: Arabic - this language can can be traced back to the Arabian Peninsula, where it developed over time from a group of dialects spoken by the nomadic Bedouin tribes - the earliest form of Arabic, known as Old Arabic, dates back to the 4th century CE).

The connection between the Jewish people and Israel goes back long before the birth of either Christianity or Islam. Jews created a society there in the days of Joshua, a kingdom in the days of Saul, and a nation with Jerusalem as its capital in the days of King David - more than 3,000 years ago.

Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there. At all other times in the past 3,000 years it was merely an administrative district in an empire whose centre was elsewhere: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Alexandrian, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Crusaders of the Holy Roman Empire, the various Muslim empires such as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Mamluks and Ottomans - and finally, the British. Jews are the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants.

Let’s compare and contrast this to the other side shall we? Remember, at the end of the day Palestinians are Arabs - there is no such thing as a separate Palestinian people, no matter what dodgy, ahistorical nonsense some TikTok accounts spew out. The Gazans are mainly Egyptian (their surnames bear this out). The Israeli Arabs that decided to stay after 1947 had most likely lived on the land for centuries. And the ones who now live under Palestinian Authority rule in the West Bank are made up of peoples who came to the land from all over the Ottoman Empire. Again, you can tell by the surnames. You can also tell by studying Ottoman and British Mandate census accounts and records. It’s all verifiable.

And here’s the thing, because the British Mandate was so well run and there was a good chance a person could get employment, there was lots of legal and illegal immigration from Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. Under the Ottomans, the population of Palestine generally was small. Jerusalem, for obvious reasons, was an exception. Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct. They didn’t even start calling themselves Palestinians until the mid-ish 1960s, it was the Soviet Union that even gave them the idea (because the Soviet Union was rabidly antisemitic and did everything it could to stoke tensions in the region). They are Arabs.

Also, black Israeli Jews, of which there are many, will be shocked to find out that they are in fact white (Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews make the Jewish world very ethically and racially diverse).

I support the right of Palestinians to a state of their own, and the right of Palestinian children and youth to a future of dignity and hope. But don’t start with this “deeper roots in the land” discussion, because history doesn’t lie, antisemites do.

Lettherebejustice · 01/10/2024 18:00

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

As I said, confused or perhaps just ignorant.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 18:08

Lettherebejustice · 01/10/2024 18:00

As I said, confused or perhaps just ignorant.

Where is me confusion?

rainingsnoring · 01/10/2024 18:34

MissyB1 · 01/10/2024 15:28

For some reason Israel gets a free pass 🤔

They do indeed because they have US support. The whole situation is shocking and awful.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 18:48

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 18:57

It makes it look bad if you report it.

If you stand by your religion, why do you want it deleted?

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:04

candlewhickgreen · 01/10/2024 14:49

Do you think that invading a hornets nest is going to work out well for Israel? After all the UKs invasion of Iraq led to extremists blowing up tubes and buses and the USs interference in the middle east, led to 11/9. Let's not mention the current state of Afghanistan.

Whoever Israel kill will be replaced because there are many indoctrinated extremists willing to take over. As we saw in the case of Saddam Hussein, power vacuums often don't lead to desirable results.

The 7/10 attacks could be attributed to the occupation of Gaza and the way the Palestinians have been treated. That's not to say that there aren't states that want to get rid off Israel but the decades long treatment of the Palestinians means Israel doesn't have clean hands.

The destruction of Gaza, the death of tens of thousands of innocent people including children, has been abhorrent and included clear crimes against humanity yet Israel has many supporters who are cheering on more destruction. In fact the US is supporting them but the US is rarely on the right side of history.

How about answering the question though?

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 19:04

Oof.

Lots of deletions on this thread.

Surely people reporting all over the place stops discourse?

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:10

candlewhickgreen · 01/10/2024 16:09

For you it's impossible to have a discussion without name calling and personal attacks. For Israel it appears impossible to stop attacking other countries or abiding by international law.

The solution is to help rebuild Gaza, supply humanitarian aid and stop the illegal occupation.

This us an unfair post as @Humdingerydoo is a very measured poster who, unlike some, takes the trouble to bring information and argument to the table. You are entitled to disagree, thats fine.

candlewhickgreen · 01/10/2024 19:11

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:10

This us an unfair post as @Humdingerydoo is a very measured poster who, unlike some, takes the trouble to bring information and argument to the table. You are entitled to disagree, thats fine.

I'm sure they can speak for themselves.

candlewhickgreen · 01/10/2024 19:12

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:04

How about answering the question though?

I responded to the post.

If the question is what exactly you want Israel to do?

Stop killing people.

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:13

candlewhickgreen · 01/10/2024 19:12

I responded to the post.

If the question is what exactly you want Israel to do?

Stop killing people.

Yes apologies, I didnt see it initially.

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:14

candlewhickgreen · 01/10/2024 19:11

I'm sure they can speak for themselves.

Of course, and alway articulate and thoughtful. I make no apology.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 19:15

The 7/10 attacks could be attributed to the occupation of Gaza and the way the Palestinians have been treated. That's not to say that there aren't states that want to get rid off Israel but the decades long treatment of the Palestinians means Israel doesn't have clean hands.

It absolutely boggles my mind that anyone would attribute what happened last October to the actions of a legitimate state.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 19:15

Ah, the first paragraph there was a quote. Not my words!

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

SharonEllis · 01/10/2024 19:22

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

Many of us are grateful for your knowledgeable posts.

Salmoney · 01/10/2024 19:23

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

Because a lot of people believe propaganda and don't apply critical thought unfortunately. You won't change their minds.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 19:59

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:44

https://nypost.com/2024/05/06/world-news/hamas-changed-ceasefire-deal-to-count-dead-hostages-report/

This is not where I saw it originally, and this is not a publication I normally read, but it was to do with the proposed ceasefire back in May as indicated in this article. I originally saw it on Times of Israel I think, but don't know how to find old articles without scrolling through every single one! I'm not the kind of person who saves these kinds of links for future use. It was also shared on at least one of the many, many threads on this board at the time but again couldn't tell you which one. Maybe someone else reading this will remember what I'm talking about and be able to share a more appropriate link than NY Post.

Edited

That was in response to:

ScrollingLeaves · Today 16:28

In one of the ceasefire negotiations this past year, Hamas were trying to negotiate that they would essentially be allowed to murder some of the hostages in cold blood before returning them (Humdingerydoo)

Though unrelated to this invasion, please would you post a link regarding this as I don’t recall reading about that?

Thank you @Humdingerydoo for bothering to find that. I can get the idea from that New York Post link.

I do remember the actual Hamas demand and its context early last May, but interpret its spirit differently from you.

Lalaloveya · 01/10/2024 20:31

Yes I think it's a misunderstanding to interpret it as Hamas wanting to kill hostages before giving them back. That's clearly not what's being said.

Anyway as it says in the article, Israel was never going to accept a ceasefire so the whole negotiation was pointless. Like every other one in the last year.

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 21:32

BillySnuz · 01/10/2024 17:59

Are you ok @SometimesCalmPerson? Because you don’t seem like you’re ok.

Firstly, a couple of questions for you. What language do Israelis speak, and where does it come from? (Answer: Hebrew - Ancient Israel. Hebrew has its origins in the Semantic language group known as the Canaanite group, which has its written records dating back to the second millennium BCE).

Now answer this question: what language do Palestinians speak and where does that language come from? (Answer: Arabic - this language can can be traced back to the Arabian Peninsula, where it developed over time from a group of dialects spoken by the nomadic Bedouin tribes - the earliest form of Arabic, known as Old Arabic, dates back to the 4th century CE).

The connection between the Jewish people and Israel goes back long before the birth of either Christianity or Islam. Jews created a society there in the days of Joshua, a kingdom in the days of Saul, and a nation with Jerusalem as its capital in the days of King David - more than 3,000 years ago.

Jews are the only people who ever created a nation state there. At all other times in the past 3,000 years it was merely an administrative district in an empire whose centre was elsewhere: the Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Alexandrian, Roman and Byzantine empires, the Crusaders of the Holy Roman Empire, the various Muslim empires such as the Umayyads, Abbasids, Fatimids, Mamluks and Ottomans - and finally, the British. Jews are the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants.

Let’s compare and contrast this to the other side shall we? Remember, at the end of the day Palestinians are Arabs - there is no such thing as a separate Palestinian people, no matter what dodgy, ahistorical nonsense some TikTok accounts spew out. The Gazans are mainly Egyptian (their surnames bear this out). The Israeli Arabs that decided to stay after 1947 had most likely lived on the land for centuries. And the ones who now live under Palestinian Authority rule in the West Bank are made up of peoples who came to the land from all over the Ottoman Empire. Again, you can tell by the surnames. You can also tell by studying Ottoman and British Mandate census accounts and records. It’s all verifiable.

And here’s the thing, because the British Mandate was so well run and there was a good chance a person could get employment, there was lots of legal and illegal immigration from Syria, Lebanon and Egypt. Under the Ottomans, the population of Palestine generally was small. Jerusalem, for obvious reasons, was an exception. Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct. They didn’t even start calling themselves Palestinians until the mid-ish 1960s, it was the Soviet Union that even gave them the idea (because the Soviet Union was rabidly antisemitic and did everything it could to stoke tensions in the region). They are Arabs.

Also, black Israeli Jews, of which there are many, will be shocked to find out that they are in fact white (Sephardic, Ashkenazic, Mizrahi and Ethiopian Jews make the Jewish world very ethically and racially diverse).

I support the right of Palestinians to a state of their own, and the right of Palestinian children and youth to a future of dignity and hope. But don’t start with this “deeper roots in the land” discussion, because history doesn’t lie, antisemites do.

Are you saying that only Jews have ancestors who were part of the land and purely descended from the tribes in the region in ancient times and they remain to this day - no matter the intervening thousands of years or where they have lived or with whom they intermarried with in the diaspora -
the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants?

Are you saying it is anti-Semitic if someone suggests there were other peoples there too long before the Ottomans, whose various descendants are still there mixed in with later comers?

Are you suggesting that history exists as a fact that modern people can unravel with certainty if it is from the Jewish point of view, but otherwise artificial like something concocted by Russia?

I am a bit tired and may have misread, but what you said came across oddly imo apart from saying that Israeli Jews are ethnically and racially diverse.

MissyB1 · 01/10/2024 22:27

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:45

No. Have you seen the 7/10 documentary?

The Hamas terrorists that performed such atrocities don't care about their civilians. They don't care about people.

They just want to kill Israelis.

And they use their own 'people' as collateral damage.

So Israel can't step back because there is no 'stepping back' for Hamas or Hezbollah.

The poster I had quoted stated that "pro Palestine" posters were anti semitic. Which is a totally incorrect and unacceptable accusation. It is however a frequent accusation.

mouthpipette · 01/10/2024 23:46

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 19:20

Thanks @SharonEllis !

I don't expect any actual feasible solutions from anyone on here - I was hoping my question would at least get them thinking though, but no. Too firmly stuck in the "it's all Israel's fault" camp and unwilling to consider that it might actually be quite a bit more complicated than that. Being so incredibly simplistic about it all isn't helpful, but they don't want to be helpful or to figure out solutions, they just want someone to blame. Oh well.

You asked a question and I went to the trouble of giving you my answer in which I outlined my solutions, highlighting 6 arguments. From what I recall you dismissed the ideas as coming from someone who held views that were "really,really extreme" Apart from that you have not even attempted to address them. Please outline why the points I raised are "unfeasible" .

Gloriana 1 thought I was "mad in the brain" At least from her I got a free diagnosis.