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Conflict in the Middle East

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wavingfuriously · 01/10/2024 23:52

Lalaloveya · 01/10/2024 14:32

That's a huge worry. They literally got away with genocide in Gaza and not only did the west not try to stop them, but they supported them and armed them. It's obscene. I hope to God this doesn't last long. I can hardly bear to follow it, so it's incomprehensible what the ordinary people there are going through.

agree...thousands of innocent children slaughtered.. it's insane, just can't believe how the world let it happen 🤷‍♀️😢

maudelovesharold · 01/10/2024 23:53

Let's hope civilian casualties are kept to a minimum though ....

Yeah….right. The chances of civilian casualties being kept to a minimum are, as I’m sure we all know, precisely zero. The civilians will bear the brunt, as always. Unfortunately not all civilians have the protection of bunkers and iron domes.

CopperTurquoise · 01/10/2024 23:57

Gosh, I wonder why so many Israeli homes have a bomb shelter.

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 23:57

mouthpipette · 01/10/2024 23:46

You asked a question and I went to the trouble of giving you my answer in which I outlined my solutions, highlighting 6 arguments. From what I recall you dismissed the ideas as coming from someone who held views that were "really,really extreme" Apart from that you have not even attempted to address them. Please outline why the points I raised are "unfeasible" .

Gloriana 1 thought I was "mad in the brain" At least from her I got a free diagnosis.

I 100% stand by my previous assessment that you have particularly extreme views. I'm surprised no one has never mentioned this to you before.

Your "solution" was something along the lines of Israel withdrawing from everywhere, accepting all the blame for everything that's happened on all fronts over the last few decades and then they can eventually discuss the hostages at some point. So give the terrorists everything they want, and then we can discuss when they're ready. That is very much not a feasible or even remotely sensible solution. It's the kind of suggestion only someone with particularly extreme views would make.

So no, I won't be addressing your "points" further than this because quite frankly, I don't think you'll actually listen to what I'm saying anyway. You are so sure that you are on the right side of history despite seemingly agreeing with terrorists on this matter that I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin.

The way you minimised absolutely every single Israeli fear is what really put me off your post, by the way. It's absolute insanity to pretend that "the other side" doesn't have legitimate concerns.

TheGoatgotout · 02/10/2024 00:26

So how will Israel eliminate the threat? Hamas and Hezbollah won’t cease to exist just because some leadership were killed. The many thousands of ordinary citizens killed as a consequence of going for the leaders will grow willing volunteers to take up the mantle. The current methodology doesn’t seem to be subduing those Israel wishes to eradicate. In fact, the spread and escalating conflict make it clear decimating Gaza has ignited more hate towards Israel. This ‘best form of defence is offence’ doesn’t seem to have a possible exit strategy, other than Israel wiping out entire civilisations. I understand wanting to defend. But surely than should be protecting borders more, using Intel and mossad doing what they’re very capable of - targeted hits on specific individuals. When you use bombs from jets in the enemy’s airspace and tanks in their borders, it’s no longer defence.

mouthpipette · 02/10/2024 01:23

Humdingerydoo said ( my responses in bold)

I 100% stand by my previous assessment that you have particularly extreme views. I'm surprised no one has never mentioned this to you before.
Your "solution" was something along the lines of Israel withdrawing from everywhere, (No, I said just from Gaza and the West bank ) accepting all the blame for everything that's happened on all fronts over the last few decades ( I never said they were to blame for everything) and then they can eventually discuss the hostages at some point. (Yes) So give the terrorists everything they want, (No, I didn't say that Terrorists should have everything they want. They want to "dismantle the Zionist project" and I never wrote that I wished for that. Personally I would like to see a radically modified Zionist project) and then we can discuss when they're ready. That is very much not a feasible or even remotely sensible solution. It's the kind of suggestion only someone with particularly extreme views would make. (That's the second time you've mentioned my extreme views, I think you meant to say "extremely fair and sensible views")
So no, I won't be addressing your "points" further than this because quite frankly, I don't think you'll actually listen to what I'm saying anyway. ( I'm here, aren't I?) You are so sure that you are on the right side of history despite seemingly agreeing with terrorists ( Where in my post did I agree with terrorists?) on this matter that I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin.( Try looking at the conflict from another point of view)
The way you minimised absolutely every single Israeli fear ( I put those fears into context. However, Israelis have been made to be fearful, both by the actions of their enemies and their own government) is what really put me off your post, by the way. It's absolute insanity to pretend that "the other side" doesn't have legitimate concerns.(I'm not quite sure what you meant by this last statement, it seems a bit muddled, akin to that which went before it.)

StandingSideBySide · 02/10/2024 04:57

Chrishelle · 01/10/2024 17:20

Israel has every right to defend its land and people. As always in war, there will be innocents killed. Terrorists need to be destroyed, so that peace loving people can get on with their lives.

Thousands of civilians being targeted is not acceptable in any conflict.

Every country and people have a right to defend themselves. However as the UN and many leaders stated many many months ago invasion is not defence.

Israel is not by definition defending themselves, they are attacking and invading beyond their borders.

mids2019 · 02/10/2024 05:16

So......The G day landings were an invasion not a defence and so we should condemn them? Weird logic.....

mids2019 · 02/10/2024 05:20

Look quite simply we could have said nazism would still exist even if the third Reich was defeated so why bother with D day and VE day. Hey the German people would have still rallied round after the German defeat as many of their civilians got killed. Didn't happen and now Germany is a peace living country that expunged the hate filled ideology 80 years ago. Sometimes war is necessary sadly.

TheGoatgotout · 02/10/2024 08:37

We didn’t obliterate Germany. Also it was a world response to Germany INVADING other countries.

Ilovetowander · 02/10/2024 08:52

The situation is extremely worrying for peace across the world and has been for almost a year. The actions last October were not resolved and Israel was encouraged not to retaliate. Other democratic governments would not have been treated in such a way in my view, the approach to terrorist organisations by the US was not criticised when they attacked other sovereign nations. Israel is continuously being asked to hold back. If Israel were the size of the US and as dominant I doubt they would be asked to do that.

Humdingerydoo · 02/10/2024 09:03

mouthpipette · 02/10/2024 01:23

Humdingerydoo said ( my responses in bold)

I 100% stand by my previous assessment that you have particularly extreme views. I'm surprised no one has never mentioned this to you before.
Your "solution" was something along the lines of Israel withdrawing from everywhere, (No, I said just from Gaza and the West bank ) accepting all the blame for everything that's happened on all fronts over the last few decades ( I never said they were to blame for everything) and then they can eventually discuss the hostages at some point. (Yes) So give the terrorists everything they want, (No, I didn't say that Terrorists should have everything they want. They want to "dismantle the Zionist project" and I never wrote that I wished for that. Personally I would like to see a radically modified Zionist project) and then we can discuss when they're ready. That is very much not a feasible or even remotely sensible solution. It's the kind of suggestion only someone with particularly extreme views would make. (That's the second time you've mentioned my extreme views, I think you meant to say "extremely fair and sensible views")
So no, I won't be addressing your "points" further than this because quite frankly, I don't think you'll actually listen to what I'm saying anyway. ( I'm here, aren't I?) You are so sure that you are on the right side of history despite seemingly agreeing with terrorists ( Where in my post did I agree with terrorists?) on this matter that I honestly wouldn't even know where to begin.( Try looking at the conflict from another point of view)
The way you minimised absolutely every single Israeli fear ( I put those fears into context. However, Israelis have been made to be fearful, both by the actions of their enemies and their own government) is what really put me off your post, by the way. It's absolute insanity to pretend that "the other side" doesn't have legitimate concerns.(I'm not quite sure what you meant by this last statement, it seems a bit muddled, akin to that which went before it.)

Edited

mouthpipette · Yesterday 16:07
I've added my (reluctant and against my better judgment) responses to your original post in bold. I haven't addressed the subsequent one as you've pretended to not have said certain things that you did, in fact, say. None of what you said is fair or feasible. It is letting terrorists win.

The answer is really very simple and it is; withdraw from Gaza, stop provoking Hezbollah and Iran, pull out the settlers from the west bank and then sit down and start to negotiate the release of Hostages and a way forward for Palestinians and Israelis to live without violence.
IE do everything the terrorists want. That's you going along with terrorists. That's also you laying all the blame for everything at Israel's feet. You are accusing Israel of provoking Hezbollah and Iran even though everyone knows Iran was behind October 7th in the first place (quite the provocation, don't you think?) and Iran-backed Hezbollah are the aggressors since they started attacking Israel unprovoked on October 8th and haven't stopped since. So again, you're choosing to side with terrorists. What you're saying is, hostage-taking works. That would encourage them to do so again.

In an attempt to pre-empt your responses.

“They’ll do another October 7” . A repeat of October would not happen if Israel were to line up its armour on its borders and also to listen to its intelligence.
Both Hamas and Hezbollah have been working on another October 7th. Thanks to Israeli intelligence the one Hezbollah was preparing has been prevented for now. Hamas leaders have been saying for a year that they will do it all again and again and again. I'm not sure why you dont believe them when they say this, but you do believe them when they say they will enter into hostage negotiations once Israel has withdrawn from everywhere? That's absolute insanity. Just having armour on its borders won't be enough, just like it wasn't a year ago.

“They’ll pummel us with rockets” The rockets that Hamas launch are really of no consequence. Their effects are exaggerated in order to justify Israeli aggression. They are nearly all unguided, carry a small payload and cause very few fatalities. For Israel they are an expensive annoyance. Hezbollah does possess more sophisticated ballistic missiles, and they are a threat, but they have not used them and are unlikely to do so, unless they are attacked, which is what is happening at the moment.
Tell that to the hospital in Israel that was hit directly by a rocket from Gaza early on in the current conflict, or the people whose houses have been destroyed by these rockets that are apparently "of no consequence". Unless you're willing to be hit by one yourself, they are very much of consequence. Saying otherwise is absolutely outrageous. And absolutely laughable that you think Hezbollah haven't been using their missiles! How do you think those 12 children died in northern Israel? Trying to minimise the effect rockets have is, again, only something those with extreme views would do as it's not even a remotely normal argument to be making

Remember it is Israel that has escalated the situation on its northern border, not Hezbollah. Up until recently the two protagonists were simply trading artillery fire across the border, because up until a fortnight ago, neither side wanted to get embroiled in a full scale war.
That's rewriting history. Israelis up north have been displaced for a year because Hezbollah decided to start firing rockets into Israel. That means Hezbollah escalated it. You can't just deny facts to suit your particularly extreme narrative of choice. You really need to stop minimising everything Hezbollah has done and is capable of doing. "Simply trading artillery fire" as though that's perfectly normal. I mean, come on.

“They pose an “existential threat” to Israel” is yet another exaggeration used to justify Israeli aggression. Compare the military capabilities of Hamas and Hezbollah with that of Israel and that will be immediately apparent. The same argument applies to non-nuclear Iran.
Iran are as non-nuclear as Israel is. And when Israel is being attacked from every single direction, they are under existential threat even if you for some reason have decided to minimise this fear, just like you've minimised everything else that Israel has to deal with in your post.

“Hamas wants to eradicate all Jews” . Even if it were true, I doubt if they could get anywhere near to achieving this, as there are well over 15 million Jews in the world and only a few thousand members of Hamas. Yet another fallacious argument.
So because you specifically don't think this is something they'll be able to do, you don't mind them making that threat? But also, bear in mind this isn't actually something I've said. This is you having some rather odd conversation with yourself.

“You cannot negotiate with terrorists.” Well the release of hostages in November proved that you can. You’ll also find that over the decades there have been a number of agreements between the protagonists in this conflict that you don’t get to hear about.
The fact that Hamas stopped releasing hostages means that no, you cannot trust them and you cannot successfully negotiate with them. Why weren't 3/4 of the Bibas family released in November? Why wasn't Noa Argamani? Carmel Gat? They had live hostages that fit their criteria for release yet kept them behind and elected to resume the war instead. They also didn't release enough hostages the last day, declaring that two released as goodwill the previous day would count towards the total tally. Unsurprisingly, genocidal, murderous terrorists can't be trusted.

“You’re an antisemite”. No I’m not.again, not something I've actually said. I think you have extreme views that often align with those of various terrorist organisations though.

inamarina · 02/10/2024 09:18

maudelovesharold · 01/10/2024 23:53

Let's hope civilian casualties are kept to a minimum though ....

Yeah….right. The chances of civilian casualties being kept to a minimum are, as I’m sure we all know, precisely zero. The civilians will bear the brunt, as always. Unfortunately not all civilians have the protection of bunkers and iron domes.

Why didn’t Hamas ensure that the Gazan civilians have the protection of bunkers? After all, they managed to build quite elaborate underground tunnels.

yummyscummymummy01 · 02/10/2024 09:49

It's a terrifying situation. Whilst I sympathise with a country having the right to defend itself the question with Israel has always been how proportionate their response is. The slaughter in Gaza, and the Wests support of it, has made that region and all the country's involved less safe. Israel now seem to be acting with no regard for the views of its allies and feels dangerously out of control to me.
Please don't respond to this by telling me to read up on the history of the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and the endless cycle of death and hatred and racism will only continue with the death of even more people.
There aren't any easy answers but this current escalation is definitely not the right one.

MissyB1 · 02/10/2024 11:00

yummyscummymummy01 · 02/10/2024 09:49

It's a terrifying situation. Whilst I sympathise with a country having the right to defend itself the question with Israel has always been how proportionate their response is. The slaughter in Gaza, and the Wests support of it, has made that region and all the country's involved less safe. Israel now seem to be acting with no regard for the views of its allies and feels dangerously out of control to me.
Please don't respond to this by telling me to read up on the history of the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and the endless cycle of death and hatred and racism will only continue with the death of even more people.
There aren't any easy answers but this current escalation is definitely not the right one.

I agree, it's very much about "proportioniate" and Israel increasingly failing to recognise (or just showing blatant disregard) for what is a proportionate response. the "self defence" argument went out of the window long ago. The current escalation should never have happened, a ceasefire in Gaza could have prevented it, and now a spiral of very dangerous tit for tat has been set in motion. Call me a cynic but I'm starting to believe this is exactly what Israel wanted and planned for. Netanyahu is a very dangerous man, in the same way that Putin is.

BillySnuz · 02/10/2024 11:35

Are you saying that only Jews have ancestors who were part of the land and purely descended from the tribes in the region in ancient times and they remain to this day…

No, not at all but ancestral claims to a particular land are separate from being indigenous to a particular land. No one would deny that Palestinians don’t have claims (that should be honoured through the establishment of a two state solution), but their link with the land is much, much, much more recent. In the 600s, the Arab Islamic Empire conquered the Land of Israel. Today’s Palestinians are the descendants of converted Jews, Arabs that arrived to the Holy Land at various points throughout history, as well as others who’ve passed through via migration and colonialism. Palestinian national identity, independent of a greater Arab identity, dates back to the 20th century!

—no matter the intervening thousands of years or where they have lived or with whom they intermarried with in the diaspora -

This is actually a bit of a complex issue, I’ll address this separately, it requires a lot of explaining.

Are you saying it is anti-Semitic if someone suggests there were other peoples there too long before the Ottomans, whose various descendants are still there mixed in with later comers?

Um, no. But rewriting or falsifying history in a way that denies the Jewish people’s connection to the Land of Israel is antisemitic. You see it every weekend at the hate marchers in London that take over the Westend, making it a no go zone for Jews: the cranks waving signs that claim Israel is a colonial presence in the Middle East. It is nothing of the kind.

Are you suggesting that history exists as a fact that modern people can unravel with certainty if it is from the Jewish point of view, but otherwise artificial like something concocted by Russia?

Eh, what? There is fierce historiographical debate concerning what history actually is (see E. H. Carr’s “What is History?” or Richard Evans’ “In Defence of History”). Buy in layman’s terms, history is written from the primary and secondary sources which are held in archives. My father and my brother are actually historians themselves. Sadly I only hold a humble BA in History and Russian (language). I’m not academics like them but I am across how it it is put together. If you think you have a better, more compelling counter argument based on what is written down, then go for it. The only thing I would say is that the historical archives held by most Arab states are completely closed and no one is allowed in (ever, now or in the future). Which is, I suppose…convenient.

Also, you picked up on the Russia thing. Actually it was the Soviet Union at the time. But it’s true, the Soviet Union was in the business of sponsoring anti-colonial, and other Marxist liberation movements to expand its sphere of influence. Given that Israel was both the only democratic nation in the Middle East and was quickly drawing closer to many Western powers, the Soviet Union had a vested interest in destabilizing the small nation. As such, in 1964, the Soviet Union latched onto the PLO, so much so that its original charter was drafted in Moscow by 422 KGB-approved Palestinian representatives. As I alluded to above, I’m a Russian speaker and I used to live in Russia. I have studied this a lot when I was at university there (late naughties).

To answer the rest of your query I’m going to do a part two, just to make this all a bit more digestible.

BillySnuz · 02/10/2024 11:58

ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 21:32

Are you saying that only Jews have ancestors who were part of the land and purely descended from the tribes in the region in ancient times and they remain to this day - no matter the intervening thousands of years or where they have lived or with whom they intermarried with in the diaspora -
the only people who have maintained a continuous presence in the land. They are its indigenous, original inhabitants?

Are you saying it is anti-Semitic if someone suggests there were other peoples there too long before the Ottomans, whose various descendants are still there mixed in with later comers?

Are you suggesting that history exists as a fact that modern people can unravel with certainty if it is from the Jewish point of view, but otherwise artificial like something concocted by Russia?

I am a bit tired and may have misread, but what you said came across oddly imo apart from saying that Israeli Jews are ethnically and racially diverse.

To pick up where I left off, for part II:

Jews are a nation — not to be confused with a modern “nation state” (e.g. the United States, Canada). That is, a community of people with a shared language, history, ethnicity, culture, and/or territory. They have a collective identity as a singular people (i.e. the Jewish People, the People or Children of Israel) that goes back 3000 years.

Case in point: the term “Jew” is a modern English sixteenth century translation of the Old English word “Iudeisc,” which in itself was a translation of the Latin word “Iudeas,” meaning a citizen of the Kingdom of Judah (930 BCE-587/6 BCE) or a citizen of Judea (586/7 BCE-136 CE). In most languages — including Hebrew, the ancestral language of Jews — the term “Jew” is quite literally still the same word as “Judean.” (As in Judea, that place we now call The West Bank.

So their identity as a nation very much surpasses their identity as a religious group. In fact, the understanding of Jews as a “religious group” is a rather recent development in history, dating back to the French Revolution and the Enlightenment.

(Also another thing, I see a lot of MNs get confused about this aspect often, so to clear this up - whether a Jew believes in Judaism or not is fully irrelevant, because they are still a member of their nation).

The Jewish People are the direct descendants of a confederation of Hebrew tribes that lived in the region of modern-day Israel/Palestine during the Bronze Age. For 3000 years, they have called themselves a tribe. In fact, the term “tribe” in English comes from the Old French “tribu,” which was first used to describe “one of the twelve divisions of the ancient Hebrews.”

None of this is a matter of religious belief or imagination; their tribal identity and ancestry is among the most well-documented in the world. Genetic studies on Jews clearly indicate ancient Canaanite heritage (the Hebrew tribes emerged from Canaanite tribes). Much of their culture still reflects ancient Canaanite culture; e.g., Hebrew is the only Canaanite language that still exists to this day, and many Hebrew words still allude to the ancient Canaanite gods (for instance, the generic Hebrew word for god — as opposed to THE god — is “el.” El was one of the two most important gods in the Canaanite pantheon).

Because of imperial conquest and colonization, most Jews don’t know which of the Hebrew tribes their ancestors came from, though if you are Jewish, you most likely descend from the tribe of Benjamin, Judah, or Levi. Ethiopian Jews claim descent from the tribe of Dan. Samaritans, who are Israelites but not Jews, descend from the tribes of Ephraim, Manasseh, or Levi.

Everyone is indigenous to somewhere (or somewheres). Not all peoples are Indigenous Peoples.

The United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues defines Indigenous Peoples as the following: (1) self-identification as Indigenous Peoples; (2) historical continuity with pre-colonial and pre-settler societies; (3) strong link to territories and surrounding natural resources; (4) distinct social, economic, or political systems; (5) distinct language, culture, and beliefs; (6) non-dominant groups of society; (7) resolve to maintain and reproduce their ancestral environments and systems as distinctive peoples and communities. The Jewish people tick every one of these boxes.

Indigeneity is primarily about land-based, cultural continuity that predates colonialism and imperialism. Their culture; their belief system; their language; their social systems (e.g. Kohanim, or the inherited Jewish priestly class, not to be confused with rabbis); the Jewish people’s understanding of themselves as a people, as a tribe, and as a nation: all of these characteristics long predate the foreign conquests of the Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Macedonians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders, Ottomans, and British.

The fact that they’ve been able to preserve the culture and identity of their ancestors in the face of so much conquest, oppression, ethnic cleansing, slavery, massacres, genocide, spiritual repression, and more is nothing short of remarkable and an example of Indigenous resistance.

An ethnic group or ethnicity is a social group that shares common ancestry, culture, traditions, history, language, and/or religion, as well as a plethora of other commonalities. Ethnic groups have what is known as an “ethnogenesis,” meaning the point at which an ethnic group forms or develops. For example, the ethnogenesis of the ancestors of today’s Jews, the Israelites, can be attributed to the point in time during which a confederation of Hebrew tribes united to establish the Kingdom of Israel some 3000 years ago.

Ethnic groups can both merge (known as a pan-ethnicity) or split into groups (known as sub-ethnicity). Because of their forced displacement, which resulted in geographical distance from each other, various Jewish sub-ethnic groups formed. Some examples of Jewish sub-ethnic groups are Ashkenazim, Sepharadim, and Mizrahim.

This bit is germane to what you were querying: For thousands of years, Jews have practiced endogamy — that is, marrying within the ethnic group. Because they have had such a closed genetic pool for so long, Jewish DNA is among the most studied in the world.

And also, another significant factor that plays into all of this - Judaism differs from the other Abrahamic monotheisms, Christianity and Islam, in that it is the only one of the three that never created or sought to create an empire. So despite the fact that while most Jews were forcibly displaced from their homeland by invading empires at various points throughout history, they didn’t go out into the world to conquer and appropriate from others (again, see the Christian and Islamic empires who did do this), and as a consequence there was a lot less “mingling” (for want of a better word) with other peoples or ethnic groups. Instead, Jewish culture, spirituality, and identity remained tethered to the Land of Israel through prayer, language, customs, and more. This is evident in things such as their holidays, which celebrate the earth of the Land of Israel; the Hebrew calendar, which follows the agricultural cycle of Israel/Palestine; their prayers, which call to Israel; the preservation of the Hebrew language in various Diasporic dialects such as Yiddish and Ladino; etc.

Hope that helps.

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:30

yummyscummymummy01 · 02/10/2024 09:49

It's a terrifying situation. Whilst I sympathise with a country having the right to defend itself the question with Israel has always been how proportionate their response is. The slaughter in Gaza, and the Wests support of it, has made that region and all the country's involved less safe. Israel now seem to be acting with no regard for the views of its allies and feels dangerously out of control to me.
Please don't respond to this by telling me to read up on the history of the Middle East. I'm well aware of it, and the endless cycle of death and hatred and racism will only continue with the death of even more people.
There aren't any easy answers but this current escalation is definitely not the right one.

But why are you pinpointing Israel as the cause of the escalation? The escalation was 7 October. Iarael was normalising relations with various ME states - the states who could have helped broker a more robust peace settlement. Iran-backed terrorists conducted an attack of the most extreme ferocity seen in recent times on innocent citizens. This was an attack directly on Jews for being Jews & anyone else who got in the way. It was not an attack on military or security targets but on kibbutzim & festival goers. Iran-backed Hezbollah attacked tbe next day as an act of solidarity. No rational person would argue that Israel did not have the right to respond & drstroy those who mounted that attack. Even if you might argue the response has not always been proportionate how is Israel responsible for the escalation?

Kindatired · 02/10/2024 12:34

@BillySnuz I think you have been influenced by “From Times Immemorial” by Joan Peters?

Lettherebejustice · 02/10/2024 12:36

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:30

But why are you pinpointing Israel as the cause of the escalation? The escalation was 7 October. Iarael was normalising relations with various ME states - the states who could have helped broker a more robust peace settlement. Iran-backed terrorists conducted an attack of the most extreme ferocity seen in recent times on innocent citizens. This was an attack directly on Jews for being Jews & anyone else who got in the way. It was not an attack on military or security targets but on kibbutzim & festival goers. Iran-backed Hezbollah attacked tbe next day as an act of solidarity. No rational person would argue that Israel did not have the right to respond & drstroy those who mounted that attack. Even if you might argue the response has not always been proportionate how is Israel responsible for the escalation?

It was an attack on Israelis and anyone living in Israel. If it was an attack purely on Jews then why would Muslims also be killed and abducted and kept hostage?

CallMeMammy · 02/10/2024 12:50

Lettherebejustice · 02/10/2024 12:36

It was an attack on Israelis and anyone living in Israel. If it was an attack purely on Jews then why would Muslims also be killed and abducted and kept hostage?

Or the 32 Thai workers who were killed and the 22 who were taken hostage. It saddens me how other ethnicities and religions are often scrubbed out of conversations when it comes to Israel. There are 10s of 1000s of Thai workers in Israel doing hard manual work for low wages, they contribute a lot to the country but often seem to be left out of the conversation and forgotten about when it comes to the atrocities of Oct 7 and beyond.

HelenHen · 02/10/2024 12:52

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:30

But why are you pinpointing Israel as the cause of the escalation? The escalation was 7 October. Iarael was normalising relations with various ME states - the states who could have helped broker a more robust peace settlement. Iran-backed terrorists conducted an attack of the most extreme ferocity seen in recent times on innocent citizens. This was an attack directly on Jews for being Jews & anyone else who got in the way. It was not an attack on military or security targets but on kibbutzim & festival goers. Iran-backed Hezbollah attacked tbe next day as an act of solidarity. No rational person would argue that Israel did not have the right to respond & drstroy those who mounted that attack. Even if you might argue the response has not always been proportionate how is Israel responsible for the escalation?

Were all attendees of the festival, and all victims, Jewish? Yes, I understand that most probably were, but was it a Jewish only event? I'm not being funny but I thought it was an open festival.

That's in response to your "an attack directly on Jews for being Jews".

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:54

Lettherebejustice · 02/10/2024 12:36

It was an attack on Israelis and anyone living in Israel. If it was an attack purely on Jews then why would Muslims also be killed and abducted and kept hostage?

Read the testimonies, watch the footage. It is not possible to be this ignorant a year on.

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:55

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:54

Read the testimonies, watch the footage. It is not possible to be this ignorant a year on.

Se also @HelenHen

SharonEllis · 02/10/2024 12:59

CallMeMammy · 02/10/2024 12:50

Or the 32 Thai workers who were killed and the 22 who were taken hostage. It saddens me how other ethnicities and religions are often scrubbed out of conversations when it comes to Israel. There are 10s of 1000s of Thai workers in Israel doing hard manual work for low wages, they contribute a lot to the country but often seem to be left out of the conversation and forgotten about when it comes to the atrocities of Oct 7 and beyond.

Edited

I am not scrubbing them out but Hamas's motivation was not to wipe out Thai people. In fact the people who tend to 'scrub out' other ethnicities in Israel are those who are anti-Israel. Their narrative tends to focus on Israel as an ethno-centric white colonial state. Those who umderstand Israel better talk about its diversity