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Conflict in the Middle East

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SometimesCalmPerson · 01/10/2024 16:25

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Iambitingmytongue · 01/10/2024 16:27

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Your ignorance of the actual historical context is why you don’t understand.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:27

mouthpipette · 01/10/2024 16:07

So I'm wondering what exactly you want Israel to do? @ Humdingerydoo

The answer is really very simple and it is; withdraw from Gaza, stop provoking Hezbollah and Iran, pull out the settlers from the west bank and then sit down and start to negotiate the release of Hostages and a way forward for Palestinians and Israelis to live without violence.
In an attempt to pre-empt your responses.

  1. “They’ll do another October 7” . A repeat of October would not happen if Israel were to line up its armour on its borders and also to listen to its intelligence.
  2. “They’ll pummel us with rockets” The rockets that Hamas launch are really of no consequence. Their effects are exaggerated in order to justify Israeli aggression. They are nearly all unguided, carry a small payload and cause very few fatalities. For Israel they are an expensive annoyance. Hezbollah does possess more sophisticated ballistic missiles, and they are a threat, but they have not used them and are unlikely to do so, unless they are attacked, which is what is happening at the moment. Remember it is Israel that has escalated the situation on its northern border, not Hezbollah. Up until recently the two protagonists were simply trading artillery fire across the border, because up until a fortnight ago, neither side wanted to get embroiled in a full scale war.
  3. “They pose an “existential threat” to Israel” is yet another exaggeration used to justify Israeli aggression. Compare the military capabilities of Hamas and Hezbollah with that of Israel and that will be immediately apparent. The same argument applies to non-nuclear Iran.
  4. “Hamas wants to eradicate all Jews” . Even if it were true, I doubt if they could get anywhere near to achieving this, as there are well over 15 million Jews in the world and only a few thousand members of Hamas. Yet another fallacious argument.
  5. “You cannot negotiate with terrorists.” Well the release of hostages in November proved that you can. You’ll also find that over the decades there have been a number of agreements between the protagonists in this conflict that you don’t get to hear about.
  6. “You’re an antisemite”. No I’m not.

I was a supporter of Israel in the 67 war and the Yom Kippur war and those were times when there was a very real threat to the country’s existence. But since then I have seen Israel act with increasing belligerence and increasing disregard for humanity. It’s not totally to blame, the US, with its very tenuous relationships with a number of middle eastern countries has always regarded Israel as its only dependable ally in the region. Hence its unequivocal support. Israel knows this and has played upon it. I’m sure that just now it is measuring carefully the amount of opprobrium being aired by its western allies in order to calibrate just how far it can go before the west says “enough is enough”.

So that’s what Israel should do now.
What it should have done October 8th is line up it’s armour on the border and started to negotiate the release of the hostages and then moved on to negotiate the west bank. Its foray into Gaza has been a disaster and anything else would have been better.
Israel’s greatest misfortune since 1973 is that it had Netanyahu as its leader on October 7th 2023.

Are you mad in your brain?

How is any of that sensible?

Aysegull · 01/10/2024 16:27

Israel invaded Lebanon so that Israelis near the border can return to their homes.

Oh the irony.

The whole world stood by whilst Israel killed thousands of innocent Palestinians, under the pretence of finding the hostages. It gave Israel a free pass to invade another country, and get away with it.

But yes, me find that disgraceful and supporting the innocent Palestinians makes me anti semitic.

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:28

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These are not pro-Palestine views, these are purely anti-Israel views.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 16:28

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 13:55

So on the one hand, on one active thread on here we have people questioning why Israel 'let' October 7th happen and why didn't they listen to those warning of the attack? Why didn't they do more to stop it? On the other hand we have this thread where people are upset because Israel isn't letting another October 7th happen and are listening to those warning of an attack and doing more to stop it.

So I'm wondering what exactly you want Israel to do? Because it seems either way, you'll find a way to blame Israel instead of holding terrorists solely responsible for planning these heinous acts in the first place.

Please think about what I've said before replying. I understand you're upset about the seemingly inevitable loss of innocent lives, as am I. I just don't understand what people expect Israel to do. I know I'll get generic "well, not commit war crimes to start with" but that's not helpful seeing as a lot of you consider anything Israel does a war crime as they shouldn't be in Lebanon in the first place, they shouldn't have attacked the pagers, it was apparently also a war crime to target Haniyeh etc etc so I'm not interested in what you want Israel not to do, I want to know what you think they should be doing in order to swiftly get rid of all the terrorists but also spare innocent lives on both sides of the border.

Oh and before you suggest negotiations, maybe do a bit of reading to first find out how negotiating with genocidal terrorists like Hezbollah and Hamas usually go. In one of the ceasefire negotiations this past year, Hamas were trying to negotiate that they would essentially be allowed to murder some of the hostages in cold blood before returning them. But that's obviously just one example, feel free to look up more of your own.

In one of the ceasefire negotiations this past year, Hamas were trying to negotiate that they would essentially be allowed to murder some of the hostages in cold blood before returning them

Though unrelated to this invasion, please would you post a link regarding this as I don’t recall reading about that?

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:28

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What???

Bonkers

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:30

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@Gloriana1 this is anti-Semitism

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:30

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:30

@Gloriana1 this is anti-Semitism

You're not wrong.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:32

@SometimesCalmPerson, do you know the history of the region??

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:38

@SometimesCalmPerson, you do know that Judaism was from Judea?

Where is Judea?

White people???

The Jewish people are from the Levant, it is their homeland.

If anyone is muscling in, it isn't the Jewish people.

And you must know why Israel was formed? Yes?

Lettherebejustice · 01/10/2024 16:39

*Palestine

MissyB1 · 01/10/2024 16:39

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Caring about the innocent Palestinian civilians and Lebanese civilians is not anti semitic and never will be. So you can drop that tired old accusation, it doesn't wash anymore.

Lettherebejustice · 01/10/2024 16:39

Lettherebejustice · 01/10/2024 16:39

*Palestine

This was to @Gloriana1

SometimesCalmPerson · 01/10/2024 16:40

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:32

@SometimesCalmPerson, do you know the history of the region??

Enough, yes. Certainly enough to know that none of this started with Lebanese people.

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:44

ScrollingLeaves · 01/10/2024 16:28

In one of the ceasefire negotiations this past year, Hamas were trying to negotiate that they would essentially be allowed to murder some of the hostages in cold blood before returning them

Though unrelated to this invasion, please would you post a link regarding this as I don’t recall reading about that?

https://nypost.com/2024/05/06/world-news/hamas-changed-ceasefire-deal-to-count-dead-hostages-report/

This is not where I saw it originally, and this is not a publication I normally read, but it was to do with the proposed ceasefire back in May as indicated in this article. I originally saw it on Times of Israel I think, but don't know how to find old articles without scrolling through every single one! I'm not the kind of person who saves these kinds of links for future use. It was also shared on at least one of the many, many threads on this board at the time but again couldn't tell you which one. Maybe someone else reading this will remember what I'm talking about and be able to share a more appropriate link than NY Post.

Hamas changed cease-fire deal to let them include bodies of dead hostages in prisoner swap: report

While the original deal called for 33 living hostages, Hamas changed the wording to include 33 hostages “alive or bodies,” officials reportedly said.

https://nypost.com/2024/05/06/world-news/hamas-changed-ceasefire-deal-to-count-dead-hostages-report

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:45

MissyB1 · 01/10/2024 16:39

Caring about the innocent Palestinian civilians and Lebanese civilians is not anti semitic and never will be. So you can drop that tired old accusation, it doesn't wash anymore.

No. Have you seen the 7/10 documentary?

The Hamas terrorists that performed such atrocities don't care about their civilians. They don't care about people.

They just want to kill Israelis.

And they use their own 'people' as collateral damage.

So Israel can't step back because there is no 'stepping back' for Hamas or Hezbollah.

Salmoney · 01/10/2024 16:47

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I don't think it's anti semitism, very much a lot of chronically online people who just consume what's fed to them with little understanding of what's going on though.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 16:49

Salmoney · 01/10/2024 16:47

I don't think it's anti semitism, very much a lot of chronically online people who just consume what's fed to them with little understanding of what's going on though.

Yes. Maybe.

Ugh.

You're probably right though.

mouthpipette · 01/10/2024 16:50

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:30

@Gloriana1 this is anti-Semitism

It's not antisemitism, it's just ignorance. The conflict is about power, land and resources, just like most others in the world. Judaism and Islam have been dragged into it because those are the faiths of the protagonists.

Humdingerydoo · 01/10/2024 16:51

mouthpipette · 01/10/2024 16:50

It's not antisemitism, it's just ignorance. The conflict is about power, land and resources, just like most others in the world. Judaism and Islam have been dragged into it because those are the faiths of the protagonists.

Surely you can see that they're implying all Jewish Israelis are white? That's racism, in this case anti-Semitism as those being targeted by the racist comment are Jewish.

SometimesCalmPerson · 01/10/2024 16:56

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PurpleChrayn · 01/10/2024 16:57

Lebanon has been pummelling Israel with bombs and missiles for months. What do you fucking expect them to do?

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 01/10/2024 17:01

StupidFarang · 01/10/2024 16:21

Lebanon has fired 8000 missiles at another sovereign country over the last year. Causus belli if there ever was

Then if they have a casus belli Israel should make a formal declaration of War on the Lebanese State, and then proceed with that under internationally agreed law.

Gloriana1 · 01/10/2024 17:02

I don't think any Jewish Israelis are white.

They're Levantine.

They're as white as any Arab from the Middle-East.