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Conflict in the Middle East

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ScrollingLeaves · 03/10/2024 12:57

Haaretz Oct 2

Jordan's Foreign Minister Told Israelis an Inconvenient Truth

'Ask any Israeli official what is their plan for peace – you'll get nothing,' Ayman Safadi said. One thing Israelis hate is Arabs who really want peace.

On Friday we heard a hopeful speech at the United Nations. Of course, it wasn't the address by Benjamin Netanyahu, a man whose superpower is to wipe out countries and dash hopes. It was the speech by Jordanian Foreign Minister Ayman Safadi, who all but grabbed the microphone at the end of the declaration by the Arab states.

EasterIssland · 03/10/2024 14:31

Didn’t take long for ambulances to get targeted

Israel invades Lebanon
Lettherebejustice · 03/10/2024 14:36

@Easterissland as usual. A sense of deja vu?

EasterIssland · 03/10/2024 14:40

Lettherebejustice · 03/10/2024 14:36

@Easterissland as usual. A sense of deja vu?

Yes. 7 aid and sanitary workers got killed as well in Beirut

ScrollingLeaves · 03/10/2024 15:17

Unlike in Gaza it is possible to see more of what is happening from Western news agencies who can now see and report from first hand. I have been seeing the reality as shown by Sky news - some of what has been effectively collective punishment because ‘precise’ targeting of Hezbollah by Israel is not necessarily precise.

EasterIssland · 03/10/2024 15:45

EasterIssland · 03/10/2024 14:31

Didn’t take long for ambulances to get targeted

The Lebanese army said that it returned fire at Israeli forces after one of its soldiers was killed in an Israeli strike, marking the first time that the Lebanese army participated in the fighting against Israel.
Until now, Hezbollah has been fighting Israel and the Lebanese army has made it clear that it is not a party to the conflict. The Lebanese army has denied claims it pulled back its forces from the border ahead of Israel’s ground invasion of Lebanon on Monday night.

The Lebanese army said on a post on X that the army “returned fire at the sources of fire” after Israel targeted an army installation in the Lebanese border village of Bint Jbeil.

It’s not believed the exchange will lead to further fighting between Israel and the Lebanese army. The Lebanese state has called for an end to fighting between Hezbollah and Israel and says it does not want a war.

EasterIssland · 03/10/2024 16:09

Twenty-eight health workers in Lebanon have been killed in the last 24 hours, the World Health Organization (WHO) reports.
WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told a news conference that many health workers are also "not reporting to duty as they fled the areas where they work due to bombardment".
Plans to deliver a large shipment of trauma and medical supplies to Lebanon will not be able to go ahead on Friday due to flight restrictions over the country, he added.

HelenHen · 03/10/2024 16:22

EasterIssland · 03/10/2024 16:09

Twenty-eight health workers in Lebanon have been killed in the last 24 hours, the World Health Organization (WHO) reports.
WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus told a news conference that many health workers are also "not reporting to duty as they fled the areas where they work due to bombardment".
Plans to deliver a large shipment of trauma and medical supplies to Lebanon will not be able to go ahead on Friday due to flight restrictions over the country, he added.

No! This is so upsetting. To target health workers is about as low as it gets. Denying aid and medical assistance is surely a war crime... and so it continues!

BillySnuz · 03/10/2024 17:27

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice

The formation of nation states is a relatively new evolution in human society so this isn’t proof that Jewish people were in the region before Palestinians.

It is when we know that Jewish DNA to this day is closest to that of other Levantine populations, such as the Druze, and Samaritans, indicating that Jews today are the direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews and Israelites. 3000 years’ worth of archeological findings also conclusively demonstrate Jewish ancestral ties to the Land of Israel.

One Kingdom was the Kingdom of Canaan. Which as you know, the Israelites invaded and conquered. But the point is that when this happened, the entire region of these city states and petty kingdoms was being referred to as Filistin (Palestine) by the ancient Greeks and Egyptians.

Over time, yes different empires conquered the region, including the Kingdom of Judea which replaced the Kingdom of Canaan, but the name of the larger region as Palestine (in different permutations) endured for over 4,000 years.

Historians have long debated the origins of the name “Palestine.” Most believe that the word derives from the Hebrew and Egyptian word “peleshet,” meaning “migratory.” “Peleshet” was used to describe the Philistines, who settled on the Mediterranean coastline above Egypt, in parts of what is now Israel and Gaza. The Philistines were a seafaring people of Greek origin; in other words, today’s Palestinians are unrelated to the Philistines. In fact, as a people they were completely destroyed during the sixth to fourth centuries BCE, it is clear that no modern nation comes from them, including the Palestinians.

The first use of the word “Palestine” to describe a geographic region was in the 5th century BCE, at least 700 years after the use of the word “Israel.” Like the Land of Israel, “Palestine” was a loose region, describing the coastal strip that runs from Egypt to Lebanon.

Another, newer theory asserts that “Palestine” derives from the Greek word “Palaistes,” meaning “wrestler”; as you might know, the term “Israel” means “one who wrestles with G-d.” According to this theory, the word “Palestine” is a direct, Greek translation of the word “Israel.”

Between 132 CE-136 CE, when the Romans ruled over the Land of Israel (then known as the province of “Judea,” which, as I said, is where the term “Jew” derives from), the Jewish population revolted for the third time against the foreign rulers. This revolt, known as the Bar Kokhba Revolt, ended in complete catastrophe, with 600,000-one million Jews murdered in an act of genocide or sold into slavery. Following the revolt, Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Syria-Palestina,” marking the first time that “Palestine” was used as the official, legal name of the region. Historians have long argued that Hadrian did this to sever all Jewish ties to the land, though like nearly everything about Israel-Palestine, other historians dispute this assertion.

It’s important to note, however, that Palestine wasn’t known as Palestine from 136 CE. Its name changed periodically depending on those in power. As recently as the Ottoman period (1517-1917), the residents of what is now Israel-Palestine commonly called themselves “southern Syrians.”"Palestine" was revived as a political name under the British Mandate (1920-1948).

Language spoken as a result of conquest and colonisation do not turn inhabitants into the ethnicity that conquered and colonised them. There are plenty of Palestinian Israeli citizens that do speak Hebrew today right now. Yes, there was an Islamic empire in the region from 600-1920 CE or so but there is no evidence this was accompanied by ethnic cleansing such that the inhabitants were entirely replaced by waves of Arabic peoples.

First of all, The Arab conquerors did not peacefully and naturally integrate with the Indigenous populations; they both committed ethnic cleansing and physical genocide (for example, the 1012 Hakim Edict) as well as forcefully imposed their religion, language, customs, and identity upon the original inhabitants, thus de-Indigenizing them. Those who converted to Islam and Arabized assimilated into the identity of the colonizer and thus acquired the privilege that came with such an identity, at the expense of those who preserved their ancestral Indigenous customs and peoplehood (i.e. Jews and Samaritans).

So yes: Arabs did replace the Indigenous populations. And that is quite literally what settler colonialism is.

So not all people who identify as Arab today literally originated in the Arabian Peninsula; instead, many are people whose ancestors were Arabised through conquest and today speak Arabic and whose culture is Arab culture.

But how did Arabic become the dominant language in all these countries? Just as English became the dominant language in the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand through colonialism, Arabic became the dominant language in the Middle East and North Africa through imperialism.

“Language death” is a term that describes when a language loses its last native speaker. “Language extinction” is when a language is no longer spoken by anyone, including second language speakers.
“Linguicide” refers to the extermination of a language; that is, language death that is caused by human intervention (e.g. colonialism, imperialism, language discrimination) as opposed to natural causes (e.g. natural disasters that decimate communities). It is considered a form of cultural genocide.

Hebrew has experienced language death in the past, but it never experienced language extinction. Like other Indigenous language deaths, the language death of Hebrew was caused by imperialism and colonialism; that is, it was caused by human intervention.

The first wave of decline came during the period of the Babylonian Captivity, when, in 587/6 BCE, the Neo-Babylonian Empire conquered and exiled about 25 percent of the citizens of the Kingdom of Judah. Jews then began adopting Aramaic — the language spoken among the Babylonians. However, Hebrew remained in use as a liturgical tongue.

By 200 BCE — around the time period of the Maccabean Revolt against the Seleucid Empire -- everyday colloquial Hebrew became almost fully extinct.

Then in another wave of linguicide took place during the period of the Arab colonisation of the Levant. Ancient Hebrew names for places (such as Jerusalem, or Yerushalayim in Hebrew) were replaced with Arabic names. By the ninth century, Arabic fully replaced Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. This was not an evolution of language, it was done by force.

Surnames are no indicator as these are often modified into the new official language rather than kept original.

My family anglicised their Irish surname to an English version at the turn of 20th C when they emigrated to Britain. That’s not what is going on here, though.

As of 1850, between 200,000-300,000 people lived in Israel-Palestine. By 1900, just 50 years later, the population of Israel-Palestine had doubled (or tripled, depending on the statistics) to around 600,000. Just around 25,000-35,000 new Jewish immigrants arrived during this period, and it’s estimated that only 15,000 stayed, due to harsh conditions. In other words, in addition to natural population growth, Arab immigration to Israel-Palestine from elsewhere was a significant factor in the drastic population increase. This is in stark contrast to the population of Israel-Palestine in the 18th and early 19th centuries, which showed virtually no growth.

Most immigrants to Israel-Palestine during this period were Egyptian Arabs. This wave of immigration started in 1829, after thousands of peasants fled harsh labor laws imposed by the Egyptian ruler, Mehmmet Ali Pasha. Travellers during this period wrote that Bedouin tribes accompanied the peasants as well. In 1831, Egypt invaded Israel-Palestine. Over 6000 Egyptian peasants crossed into Israel-Palestine during the invasion; various Bedouin tribes also arrived with the Egyptian army. Others fled to Israel- Palestine as a result of blood feuds between different clans. Many Egyptian soldiers and administrators also chose to stay in Israel-Palestine.

By the late 19th century, the city of Jaffa had Egyptian neighborhoods all over town.
The British invasion of Egypt in 1882 prompted many Egyptians to flee to Israel-Palestine. A news report from the time stated: “Many of the people come here from Egypt to wait until the danger passes.” Very few actually returned to Egypt.
Today, the third most common last name in the Palestinian territories is “El Masry” (or al-Masry), meaning, quite literally, “the Egyptian.”

Then in the 20th C, Between 60,000-100,000 Arabs immigrated to Israel-Palestine between the two world wars. There are numerous reasons for this migration, most of all, new economic opportunities. It was also during this interwar period that a cohesive Palestinian national identity emerged.

In the early 20th C, many Egyptian peasants came to Palestine to build railroads. In March 1926, a railroad from Egypt to Israel-Palestine was completed, which prompted many young people to leave by train to seek employment in Israel-Palestine. In the 1920s and especially in the 1930s, the coastal plain between Gaza and Jaffa, as well as the area between Gedara and Ness Ziona, Ramle, and Lod became densely populated with Egyptian immigrants.

During World War II, when Jewish immigration was essentially quashed, the British brought Syrian and Lebanese labourers to Israel-Palestine. Civilians also employed foreign contractors, many of whom came to Israel-Palestine without the legal paperwork. Around 2046 foreign contractors were employed in Jewish farms and kibbutzim, of which 14.5-38.3% were Egyptians and Sudanese. Government records from this period state that there were some 14,000 Egyptian and Lebanese labourers. The population increase along the southern coastal plain during this period was almost completely due to Arab immigration.

In fact DNA studies and archaeological evidence have proven consistently that Jewish Israelites and Muslim/Christian Palestinians are both descended from the original Semitic peoples of the Levant.

Both are indigenous, which is why a two state solution where the region is shared is the most just solution to the returning Jewish and the never left Palestinians.

No, you are wrong. Your claim here simply isn’t credible. Where is the 3000+ years’ worth of archeology, DNA science, historical record for those that identify as Palestinian today? It doesn’t exist. Instead, as I explained previously (see above), we have the census and migration records of the previous two centuries which underlines how the sudden population boom between 1850 and 1900 (and later) did not come from natural population growth of people already living there, but from Arab immigration. In the preceding centuries before this period, the population of what is now Israel and the Palestinian Territories had remained stagnant. Travelers at the time described Israel-Palestine as an abandoned backwater province of the Ottoman Empire. That’s not to say that it was empty or that nobody lived there, of course, but it was sparsely populated, according to the official Ottoman censuses.

BillySnuz · 03/10/2024 17:42

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 02/10/2024 14:42

Palestine as a nation and ‘population’ is relatively recent construct.

1960s you say?
The text of the Sana’a Stele,…:
“I subdued from the bank of the Euphrates, the land of Hatti, the land of Amurru in its entirety, the land of Tyre, the land of Sidon, the land of Humri, the land of Edom, the land of Palstu, as far as the great sea of the setting Sun. I imposed tax and tribute on them.” ~ 800 BC

“The Palestinians are also mentioned in the Nimrud Letters..dated c. 735 BC:
“….I spoke to them in these terms:’Bring down lumber, do your work on it, do not deliver it to the Egyptians or Palestinians or I shall not let you go up in the mountains.” (Concerning getting lumber from the mountain forests of what is now Lebanon)

These are just two examples.

Did you read these texts in their original language (what language are they written in?), or are you’re just taking these translations at face value? If it’s the latter, you’re looking a lazy translation job. It happens.

YoYoYoYo12345 · 03/10/2024 18:32

BillySnuz · 03/10/2024 17:27

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice

The formation of nation states is a relatively new evolution in human society so this isn’t proof that Jewish people were in the region before Palestinians.

It is when we know that Jewish DNA to this day is closest to that of other Levantine populations, such as the Druze, and Samaritans, indicating that Jews today are the direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews and Israelites. 3000 years’ worth of archeological findings also conclusively demonstrate Jewish ancestral ties to the Land of Israel.

One Kingdom was the Kingdom of Canaan. Which as you know, the Israelites invaded and conquered. But the point is that when this happened, the entire region of these city states and petty kingdoms was being referred to as Filistin (Palestine) by the ancient Greeks and Egyptians.

Over time, yes different empires conquered the region, including the Kingdom of Judea which replaced the Kingdom of Canaan, but the name of the larger region as Palestine (in different permutations) endured for over 4,000 years.

Historians have long debated the origins of the name “Palestine.” Most believe that the word derives from the Hebrew and Egyptian word “peleshet,” meaning “migratory.” “Peleshet” was used to describe the Philistines, who settled on the Mediterranean coastline above Egypt, in parts of what is now Israel and Gaza. The Philistines were a seafaring people of Greek origin; in other words, today’s Palestinians are unrelated to the Philistines. In fact, as a people they were completely destroyed during the sixth to fourth centuries BCE, it is clear that no modern nation comes from them, including the Palestinians.

The first use of the word “Palestine” to describe a geographic region was in the 5th century BCE, at least 700 years after the use of the word “Israel.” Like the Land of Israel, “Palestine” was a loose region, describing the coastal strip that runs from Egypt to Lebanon.

Another, newer theory asserts that “Palestine” derives from the Greek word “Palaistes,” meaning “wrestler”; as you might know, the term “Israel” means “one who wrestles with G-d.” According to this theory, the word “Palestine” is a direct, Greek translation of the word “Israel.”

Between 132 CE-136 CE, when the Romans ruled over the Land of Israel (then known as the province of “Judea,” which, as I said, is where the term “Jew” derives from), the Jewish population revolted for the third time against the foreign rulers. This revolt, known as the Bar Kokhba Revolt, ended in complete catastrophe, with 600,000-one million Jews murdered in an act of genocide or sold into slavery. Following the revolt, Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Syria-Palestina,” marking the first time that “Palestine” was used as the official, legal name of the region. Historians have long argued that Hadrian did this to sever all Jewish ties to the land, though like nearly everything about Israel-Palestine, other historians dispute this assertion.

It’s important to note, however, that Palestine wasn’t known as Palestine from 136 CE. Its name changed periodically depending on those in power. As recently as the Ottoman period (1517-1917), the residents of what is now Israel-Palestine commonly called themselves “southern Syrians.”"Palestine" was revived as a political name under the British Mandate (1920-1948).

Language spoken as a result of conquest and colonisation do not turn inhabitants into the ethnicity that conquered and colonised them. There are plenty of Palestinian Israeli citizens that do speak Hebrew today right now. Yes, there was an Islamic empire in the region from 600-1920 CE or so but there is no evidence this was accompanied by ethnic cleansing such that the inhabitants were entirely replaced by waves of Arabic peoples.

First of all, The Arab conquerors did not peacefully and naturally integrate with the Indigenous populations; they both committed ethnic cleansing and physical genocide (for example, the 1012 Hakim Edict) as well as forcefully imposed their religion, language, customs, and identity upon the original inhabitants, thus de-Indigenizing them. Those who converted to Islam and Arabized assimilated into the identity of the colonizer and thus acquired the privilege that came with such an identity, at the expense of those who preserved their ancestral Indigenous customs and peoplehood (i.e. Jews and Samaritans).

So yes: Arabs did replace the Indigenous populations. And that is quite literally what settler colonialism is.

So not all people who identify as Arab today literally originated in the Arabian Peninsula; instead, many are people whose ancestors were Arabised through conquest and today speak Arabic and whose culture is Arab culture.

But how did Arabic become the dominant language in all these countries? Just as English became the dominant language in the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand through colonialism, Arabic became the dominant language in the Middle East and North Africa through imperialism.

“Language death” is a term that describes when a language loses its last native speaker. “Language extinction” is when a language is no longer spoken by anyone, including second language speakers.
“Linguicide” refers to the extermination of a language; that is, language death that is caused by human intervention (e.g. colonialism, imperialism, language discrimination) as opposed to natural causes (e.g. natural disasters that decimate communities). It is considered a form of cultural genocide.

Hebrew has experienced language death in the past, but it never experienced language extinction. Like other Indigenous language deaths, the language death of Hebrew was caused by imperialism and colonialism; that is, it was caused by human intervention.

The first wave of decline came during the period of the Babylonian Captivity, when, in 587/6 BCE, the Neo-Babylonian Empire conquered and exiled about 25 percent of the citizens of the Kingdom of Judah. Jews then began adopting Aramaic — the language spoken among the Babylonians. However, Hebrew remained in use as a liturgical tongue.

By 200 BCE — around the time period of the Maccabean Revolt against the Seleucid Empire -- everyday colloquial Hebrew became almost fully extinct.

Then in another wave of linguicide took place during the period of the Arab colonisation of the Levant. Ancient Hebrew names for places (such as Jerusalem, or Yerushalayim in Hebrew) were replaced with Arabic names. By the ninth century, Arabic fully replaced Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. This was not an evolution of language, it was done by force.

Surnames are no indicator as these are often modified into the new official language rather than kept original.

My family anglicised their Irish surname to an English version at the turn of 20th C when they emigrated to Britain. That’s not what is going on here, though.

As of 1850, between 200,000-300,000 people lived in Israel-Palestine. By 1900, just 50 years later, the population of Israel-Palestine had doubled (or tripled, depending on the statistics) to around 600,000. Just around 25,000-35,000 new Jewish immigrants arrived during this period, and it’s estimated that only 15,000 stayed, due to harsh conditions. In other words, in addition to natural population growth, Arab immigration to Israel-Palestine from elsewhere was a significant factor in the drastic population increase. This is in stark contrast to the population of Israel-Palestine in the 18th and early 19th centuries, which showed virtually no growth.

Most immigrants to Israel-Palestine during this period were Egyptian Arabs. This wave of immigration started in 1829, after thousands of peasants fled harsh labor laws imposed by the Egyptian ruler, Mehmmet Ali Pasha. Travellers during this period wrote that Bedouin tribes accompanied the peasants as well. In 1831, Egypt invaded Israel-Palestine. Over 6000 Egyptian peasants crossed into Israel-Palestine during the invasion; various Bedouin tribes also arrived with the Egyptian army. Others fled to Israel- Palestine as a result of blood feuds between different clans. Many Egyptian soldiers and administrators also chose to stay in Israel-Palestine.

By the late 19th century, the city of Jaffa had Egyptian neighborhoods all over town.
The British invasion of Egypt in 1882 prompted many Egyptians to flee to Israel-Palestine. A news report from the time stated: “Many of the people come here from Egypt to wait until the danger passes.” Very few actually returned to Egypt.
Today, the third most common last name in the Palestinian territories is “El Masry” (or al-Masry), meaning, quite literally, “the Egyptian.”

Then in the 20th C, Between 60,000-100,000 Arabs immigrated to Israel-Palestine between the two world wars. There are numerous reasons for this migration, most of all, new economic opportunities. It was also during this interwar period that a cohesive Palestinian national identity emerged.

In the early 20th C, many Egyptian peasants came to Palestine to build railroads. In March 1926, a railroad from Egypt to Israel-Palestine was completed, which prompted many young people to leave by train to seek employment in Israel-Palestine. In the 1920s and especially in the 1930s, the coastal plain between Gaza and Jaffa, as well as the area between Gedara and Ness Ziona, Ramle, and Lod became densely populated with Egyptian immigrants.

During World War II, when Jewish immigration was essentially quashed, the British brought Syrian and Lebanese labourers to Israel-Palestine. Civilians also employed foreign contractors, many of whom came to Israel-Palestine without the legal paperwork. Around 2046 foreign contractors were employed in Jewish farms and kibbutzim, of which 14.5-38.3% were Egyptians and Sudanese. Government records from this period state that there were some 14,000 Egyptian and Lebanese labourers. The population increase along the southern coastal plain during this period was almost completely due to Arab immigration.

In fact DNA studies and archaeological evidence have proven consistently that Jewish Israelites and Muslim/Christian Palestinians are both descended from the original Semitic peoples of the Levant.

Both are indigenous, which is why a two state solution where the region is shared is the most just solution to the returning Jewish and the never left Palestinians.

No, you are wrong. Your claim here simply isn’t credible. Where is the 3000+ years’ worth of archeology, DNA science, historical record for those that identify as Palestinian today? It doesn’t exist. Instead, as I explained previously (see above), we have the census and migration records of the previous two centuries which underlines how the sudden population boom between 1850 and 1900 (and later) did not come from natural population growth of people already living there, but from Arab immigration. In the preceding centuries before this period, the population of what is now Israel and the Palestinian Territories had remained stagnant. Travelers at the time described Israel-Palestine as an abandoned backwater province of the Ottoman Empire. That’s not to say that it was empty or that nobody lived there, of course, but it was sparsely populated, according to the official Ottoman censuses.

Thanks for this

ScrollingLeaves · 03/10/2024 19:50

Thank you @BillySnuz that was very interesting especially about the migrant railway workers more recently.

I think this was fascinating too - ending with a reminder of Cain and Abel:

Haaretz science article 2015 ( without links)

Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots

Jews break down into three genetic groups, all of which have Middle Eastern origins – which are shared with the Palestinians and Druze.

Confronted by the violence sweeping over Israel, it can be easy to overlook the things that Jews and Palestinians share: a deep attachment to the same sliver of contested land, a shared appetite for hummus, a common tradition of descent from the patriarch Abraham, and, as scientific research shows - a common genetic ancestry, as well.

Several major studies published in the past five years attest to these ancient hereditary links. At the forefront of these efforts are two researchers: Harry Ostrer, professor of pediatrics and pathology at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx, New York, and Karl Skorecki, director of medical and research development at the Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa. Back in June 2010, and within two days of each other, the two scientists and their research teams published extensive analyses of the genetic origins of the Jewish people and their Near East ancestry.

“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012.

“Karl and I are good friends,” Ostrer told Haaretz by telephone from New York. “We used somewhat different analytical methods—there’s no claim there for superiority, or one side versus the other.” In their results, as well, “there was really very little difference at all.”

Ostrer’s research on “Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era” published in The American Journal of Human Genetics, sampled 652,000 gene variants from each of 237 unrelated individuals from seven Jewish populations: Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi. These sequences were then compared with reference samples from non-Jews drawn from The Human Genome Diversity Project, a global database of genetic information gathered from populations across the world.

Each of the Jewish populations, they found, “formed its own distinctive cluster,” indicating their shared ancestry and “relative genetic isolation.”
Ostrer’s team also identified two major groups of Jews: Middle Eastern Jews (Iranian and Iraqi) and European/Syrian Jews. The split between these two groups of Jews occurred some 2,500 years ago.

Cousins with the Druze and French

Both groups of Jews shared ancestry with contemporary Middle Eastern and Southern European populations. The closest genetic relatives of the Middle Eastern Jews are Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians. The closest genetic relatives of the European group of Jews are Northern Italians, followed by Sardinians and French.

In a 2012 study, Ostrer identified North African Jews as a third major group. In Skorecki’s study on the genome -wide structure of the Jewish people published in the journal Nature, he and his fellow researchers sampled tens of thousands of genetic variants from the genomes of 121 individuals hailing from 14 Jewish Diaspora communities, and compared these variants with samples drawn from 1,166 individuals from 69 Old World non-Jewish populations.

They found that Jews from the Caucasus (Azerbaijan and Georgia), the Middle East (Iran and Iraq) North Africa (Morocco) and Sephardi and Ashkenazi communities, as well as Samaritans, form a “tight cluster” that overlaps with Israeli Druze.

This, the authors write, “is consistent with an ancestral Levantine contribution to much of contemporary Jewry.”

In addition, a “compact cluster” of Yemenite Jews “overlaps primarily with Bedouins but also with Saudi individuals.” Ethiopian and Indian Jews are more closely related to their own neighboring, host populations.

Middle East origins in European Jews

Further evidence for the Middle Eastern origins of Ashjenazi Jews came from a study published in 2014: In that research, which appeared in Nature Communications, a team led by Shai Carmi of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem sequenced the complete genomes of 128 people of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. Their analysis revealed that the Ashkenazi Jewish population is “an even mix” of European and Middle Eastern ancestral populations—suggesting, as Carmi writes on the web site of The Ashkenazi Genome Consortium (TAGC), “a sex-biased process, where, say, Middle-Eastern Jewish men married European non-Jewish women.”

Are these genetic ties between Jews, Palestinians, Bedouin, and Druze important in a contemporary context? “It doesn’t matter to me personally,” Skorecki says, “since I think that global human identity supersedes all other considerations.”

“We want to know who we are and where we came from,” Ostrer, who is now studying cancer risks among Ashkenazi Jews and Northern Israeli Druze populations, sums up. Even so, shared ancestry doesn’t necessarily imply a special bond. As Ostrer notes, citing the Biblical tale of Cain and Abel, “the fact that people are related to one another doesn’t prevent their developing extreme hostility to one another.”

Limesodaagain · 03/10/2024 20:13

ScrollingLeaves · 03/10/2024 19:50

Thank you @BillySnuz that was very interesting especially about the migrant railway workers more recently.

I think this was fascinating too - ending with a reminder of Cain and Abel:

Haaretz science article 2015 ( without links)

Blood Brothers: Palestinians and Jews Share Genetic Roots

Jews break down into three genetic groups, all of which have Middle Eastern origins – which are shared with the Palestinians and Druze.

Confronted by the violence sweeping over Israel, it can be easy to overlook the things that Jews and Palestinians share: a deep attachment to the same sliver of contested land, a shared appetite for hummus, a common tradition of descent from the patriarch Abraham, and, as scientific research shows - a common genetic ancestry, as well.

Several major studies published in the past five years attest to these ancient hereditary links. At the forefront of these efforts are two researchers: Harry Ostrer, professor of pediatrics and pathology at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx, New York, and Karl Skorecki, director of medical and research development at the Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa. Back in June 2010, and within two days of each other, the two scientists and their research teams published extensive analyses of the genetic origins of the Jewish people and their Near East ancestry.

“The closest genetic neighbors to most Jewish groups were the Palestinians, Israeli Bedouins, and Druze in addition to the Southern Europeans, including Cypriots,” as Ostrer and Skorecki wrote in a review of their findings that they co-authored in the journal Human Genetics in October 2012.

“Karl and I are good friends,” Ostrer told Haaretz by telephone from New York. “We used somewhat different analytical methods—there’s no claim there for superiority, or one side versus the other.” In their results, as well, “there was really very little difference at all.”

Ostrer’s research on “Abraham’s Children in the Genome Era” published in The American Journal of Human Genetics, sampled 652,000 gene variants from each of 237 unrelated individuals from seven Jewish populations: Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi. These sequences were then compared with reference samples from non-Jews drawn from The Human Genome Diversity Project, a global database of genetic information gathered from populations across the world.

Each of the Jewish populations, they found, “formed its own distinctive cluster,” indicating their shared ancestry and “relative genetic isolation.”
Ostrer’s team also identified two major groups of Jews: Middle Eastern Jews (Iranian and Iraqi) and European/Syrian Jews. The split between these two groups of Jews occurred some 2,500 years ago.

Cousins with the Druze and French

Both groups of Jews shared ancestry with contemporary Middle Eastern and Southern European populations. The closest genetic relatives of the Middle Eastern Jews are Druze, Bedouin and Palestinians. The closest genetic relatives of the European group of Jews are Northern Italians, followed by Sardinians and French.

In a 2012 study, Ostrer identified North African Jews as a third major group. In Skorecki’s study on the genome -wide structure of the Jewish people published in the journal Nature, he and his fellow researchers sampled tens of thousands of genetic variants from the genomes of 121 individuals hailing from 14 Jewish Diaspora communities, and compared these variants with samples drawn from 1,166 individuals from 69 Old World non-Jewish populations.

They found that Jews from the Caucasus (Azerbaijan and Georgia), the Middle East (Iran and Iraq) North Africa (Morocco) and Sephardi and Ashkenazi communities, as well as Samaritans, form a “tight cluster” that overlaps with Israeli Druze.

This, the authors write, “is consistent with an ancestral Levantine contribution to much of contemporary Jewry.”

In addition, a “compact cluster” of Yemenite Jews “overlaps primarily with Bedouins but also with Saudi individuals.” Ethiopian and Indian Jews are more closely related to their own neighboring, host populations.

Middle East origins in European Jews

Further evidence for the Middle Eastern origins of Ashjenazi Jews came from a study published in 2014: In that research, which appeared in Nature Communications, a team led by Shai Carmi of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem sequenced the complete genomes of 128 people of Ashkenazi Jewish ancestry. Their analysis revealed that the Ashkenazi Jewish population is “an even mix” of European and Middle Eastern ancestral populations—suggesting, as Carmi writes on the web site of The Ashkenazi Genome Consortium (TAGC), “a sex-biased process, where, say, Middle-Eastern Jewish men married European non-Jewish women.”

Are these genetic ties between Jews, Palestinians, Bedouin, and Druze important in a contemporary context? “It doesn’t matter to me personally,” Skorecki says, “since I think that global human identity supersedes all other considerations.”

“We want to know who we are and where we came from,” Ostrer, who is now studying cancer risks among Ashkenazi Jews and Northern Israeli Druze populations, sums up. Even so, shared ancestry doesn’t necessarily imply a special bond. As Ostrer notes, citing the Biblical tale of Cain and Abel, “the fact that people are related to one another doesn’t prevent their developing extreme hostility to one another.”

Interesting - thank you

Limesodaagain · 03/10/2024 20:14

BillySnuz · 03/10/2024 17:27

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice

The formation of nation states is a relatively new evolution in human society so this isn’t proof that Jewish people were in the region before Palestinians.

It is when we know that Jewish DNA to this day is closest to that of other Levantine populations, such as the Druze, and Samaritans, indicating that Jews today are the direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews and Israelites. 3000 years’ worth of archeological findings also conclusively demonstrate Jewish ancestral ties to the Land of Israel.

One Kingdom was the Kingdom of Canaan. Which as you know, the Israelites invaded and conquered. But the point is that when this happened, the entire region of these city states and petty kingdoms was being referred to as Filistin (Palestine) by the ancient Greeks and Egyptians.

Over time, yes different empires conquered the region, including the Kingdom of Judea which replaced the Kingdom of Canaan, but the name of the larger region as Palestine (in different permutations) endured for over 4,000 years.

Historians have long debated the origins of the name “Palestine.” Most believe that the word derives from the Hebrew and Egyptian word “peleshet,” meaning “migratory.” “Peleshet” was used to describe the Philistines, who settled on the Mediterranean coastline above Egypt, in parts of what is now Israel and Gaza. The Philistines were a seafaring people of Greek origin; in other words, today’s Palestinians are unrelated to the Philistines. In fact, as a people they were completely destroyed during the sixth to fourth centuries BCE, it is clear that no modern nation comes from them, including the Palestinians.

The first use of the word “Palestine” to describe a geographic region was in the 5th century BCE, at least 700 years after the use of the word “Israel.” Like the Land of Israel, “Palestine” was a loose region, describing the coastal strip that runs from Egypt to Lebanon.

Another, newer theory asserts that “Palestine” derives from the Greek word “Palaistes,” meaning “wrestler”; as you might know, the term “Israel” means “one who wrestles with G-d.” According to this theory, the word “Palestine” is a direct, Greek translation of the word “Israel.”

Between 132 CE-136 CE, when the Romans ruled over the Land of Israel (then known as the province of “Judea,” which, as I said, is where the term “Jew” derives from), the Jewish population revolted for the third time against the foreign rulers. This revolt, known as the Bar Kokhba Revolt, ended in complete catastrophe, with 600,000-one million Jews murdered in an act of genocide or sold into slavery. Following the revolt, Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Syria-Palestina,” marking the first time that “Palestine” was used as the official, legal name of the region. Historians have long argued that Hadrian did this to sever all Jewish ties to the land, though like nearly everything about Israel-Palestine, other historians dispute this assertion.

It’s important to note, however, that Palestine wasn’t known as Palestine from 136 CE. Its name changed periodically depending on those in power. As recently as the Ottoman period (1517-1917), the residents of what is now Israel-Palestine commonly called themselves “southern Syrians.”"Palestine" was revived as a political name under the British Mandate (1920-1948).

Language spoken as a result of conquest and colonisation do not turn inhabitants into the ethnicity that conquered and colonised them. There are plenty of Palestinian Israeli citizens that do speak Hebrew today right now. Yes, there was an Islamic empire in the region from 600-1920 CE or so but there is no evidence this was accompanied by ethnic cleansing such that the inhabitants were entirely replaced by waves of Arabic peoples.

First of all, The Arab conquerors did not peacefully and naturally integrate with the Indigenous populations; they both committed ethnic cleansing and physical genocide (for example, the 1012 Hakim Edict) as well as forcefully imposed their religion, language, customs, and identity upon the original inhabitants, thus de-Indigenizing them. Those who converted to Islam and Arabized assimilated into the identity of the colonizer and thus acquired the privilege that came with such an identity, at the expense of those who preserved their ancestral Indigenous customs and peoplehood (i.e. Jews and Samaritans).

So yes: Arabs did replace the Indigenous populations. And that is quite literally what settler colonialism is.

So not all people who identify as Arab today literally originated in the Arabian Peninsula; instead, many are people whose ancestors were Arabised through conquest and today speak Arabic and whose culture is Arab culture.

But how did Arabic become the dominant language in all these countries? Just as English became the dominant language in the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand through colonialism, Arabic became the dominant language in the Middle East and North Africa through imperialism.

“Language death” is a term that describes when a language loses its last native speaker. “Language extinction” is when a language is no longer spoken by anyone, including second language speakers.
“Linguicide” refers to the extermination of a language; that is, language death that is caused by human intervention (e.g. colonialism, imperialism, language discrimination) as opposed to natural causes (e.g. natural disasters that decimate communities). It is considered a form of cultural genocide.

Hebrew has experienced language death in the past, but it never experienced language extinction. Like other Indigenous language deaths, the language death of Hebrew was caused by imperialism and colonialism; that is, it was caused by human intervention.

The first wave of decline came during the period of the Babylonian Captivity, when, in 587/6 BCE, the Neo-Babylonian Empire conquered and exiled about 25 percent of the citizens of the Kingdom of Judah. Jews then began adopting Aramaic — the language spoken among the Babylonians. However, Hebrew remained in use as a liturgical tongue.

By 200 BCE — around the time period of the Maccabean Revolt against the Seleucid Empire -- everyday colloquial Hebrew became almost fully extinct.

Then in another wave of linguicide took place during the period of the Arab colonisation of the Levant. Ancient Hebrew names for places (such as Jerusalem, or Yerushalayim in Hebrew) were replaced with Arabic names. By the ninth century, Arabic fully replaced Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. This was not an evolution of language, it was done by force.

Surnames are no indicator as these are often modified into the new official language rather than kept original.

My family anglicised their Irish surname to an English version at the turn of 20th C when they emigrated to Britain. That’s not what is going on here, though.

As of 1850, between 200,000-300,000 people lived in Israel-Palestine. By 1900, just 50 years later, the population of Israel-Palestine had doubled (or tripled, depending on the statistics) to around 600,000. Just around 25,000-35,000 new Jewish immigrants arrived during this period, and it’s estimated that only 15,000 stayed, due to harsh conditions. In other words, in addition to natural population growth, Arab immigration to Israel-Palestine from elsewhere was a significant factor in the drastic population increase. This is in stark contrast to the population of Israel-Palestine in the 18th and early 19th centuries, which showed virtually no growth.

Most immigrants to Israel-Palestine during this period were Egyptian Arabs. This wave of immigration started in 1829, after thousands of peasants fled harsh labor laws imposed by the Egyptian ruler, Mehmmet Ali Pasha. Travellers during this period wrote that Bedouin tribes accompanied the peasants as well. In 1831, Egypt invaded Israel-Palestine. Over 6000 Egyptian peasants crossed into Israel-Palestine during the invasion; various Bedouin tribes also arrived with the Egyptian army. Others fled to Israel- Palestine as a result of blood feuds between different clans. Many Egyptian soldiers and administrators also chose to stay in Israel-Palestine.

By the late 19th century, the city of Jaffa had Egyptian neighborhoods all over town.
The British invasion of Egypt in 1882 prompted many Egyptians to flee to Israel-Palestine. A news report from the time stated: “Many of the people come here from Egypt to wait until the danger passes.” Very few actually returned to Egypt.
Today, the third most common last name in the Palestinian territories is “El Masry” (or al-Masry), meaning, quite literally, “the Egyptian.”

Then in the 20th C, Between 60,000-100,000 Arabs immigrated to Israel-Palestine between the two world wars. There are numerous reasons for this migration, most of all, new economic opportunities. It was also during this interwar period that a cohesive Palestinian national identity emerged.

In the early 20th C, many Egyptian peasants came to Palestine to build railroads. In March 1926, a railroad from Egypt to Israel-Palestine was completed, which prompted many young people to leave by train to seek employment in Israel-Palestine. In the 1920s and especially in the 1930s, the coastal plain between Gaza and Jaffa, as well as the area between Gedara and Ness Ziona, Ramle, and Lod became densely populated with Egyptian immigrants.

During World War II, when Jewish immigration was essentially quashed, the British brought Syrian and Lebanese labourers to Israel-Palestine. Civilians also employed foreign contractors, many of whom came to Israel-Palestine without the legal paperwork. Around 2046 foreign contractors were employed in Jewish farms and kibbutzim, of which 14.5-38.3% were Egyptians and Sudanese. Government records from this period state that there were some 14,000 Egyptian and Lebanese labourers. The population increase along the southern coastal plain during this period was almost completely due to Arab immigration.

In fact DNA studies and archaeological evidence have proven consistently that Jewish Israelites and Muslim/Christian Palestinians are both descended from the original Semitic peoples of the Levant.

Both are indigenous, which is why a two state solution where the region is shared is the most just solution to the returning Jewish and the never left Palestinians.

No, you are wrong. Your claim here simply isn’t credible. Where is the 3000+ years’ worth of archeology, DNA science, historical record for those that identify as Palestinian today? It doesn’t exist. Instead, as I explained previously (see above), we have the census and migration records of the previous two centuries which underlines how the sudden population boom between 1850 and 1900 (and later) did not come from natural population growth of people already living there, but from Arab immigration. In the preceding centuries before this period, the population of what is now Israel and the Palestinian Territories had remained stagnant. Travelers at the time described Israel-Palestine as an abandoned backwater province of the Ottoman Empire. That’s not to say that it was empty or that nobody lived there, of course, but it was sparsely populated, according to the official Ottoman censuses.

Thank you. I’m learning a lot from some of these posts .

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 11:44

25milesfromhome · 02/10/2024 14:43

Quaid Farhan Alkadi was shot and taken hostage by Hamas because he refused to lead them to any Israeli Jews. He says so himself in his interview.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-hamas-war/article-819071

Well we don’t know if that is why they shot him and took him hostage. The fact they did not kill him on the spot shows intent to take him hostage anyway. All we really know is that because he refused to take them to where more Jewish civilians were hiding, they had fewer hostages to take as well as him. It is a fact that Jewish hostages would be considered more valuable than Bedouin ones to Israel.

25milesfromhome · 04/10/2024 12:36

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 11:44

Well we don’t know if that is why they shot him and took him hostage. The fact they did not kill him on the spot shows intent to take him hostage anyway. All we really know is that because he refused to take them to where more Jewish civilians were hiding, they had fewer hostages to take as well as him. It is a fact that Jewish hostages would be considered more valuable than Bedouin ones to Israel.

We do know. He knows.
Quaid Farhan Alkadi: "I'm disabled now because I wouldn't reveal to Hamas where the Israelis were. I was shot for not saying where Israelis, Jews were...Hamas saw I was really a Muslim, they said 'Take us in your car and show us where the Jews are.' I said 'It's Shabbat, I'm working, no-one is here. no-one's here. I played dumb, even if they killed me I wasn't ready to do it...To them, I'm more of an enemy than you [Jewish Israeli]."

Downplaying how his extraordinary bravery and sacrifice saved lives. Unbelievable.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 12:57

BillySnuz · 03/10/2024 17:27

@SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice

The formation of nation states is a relatively new evolution in human society so this isn’t proof that Jewish people were in the region before Palestinians.

It is when we know that Jewish DNA to this day is closest to that of other Levantine populations, such as the Druze, and Samaritans, indicating that Jews today are the direct descendants of the ancient Hebrews and Israelites. 3000 years’ worth of archeological findings also conclusively demonstrate Jewish ancestral ties to the Land of Israel.

One Kingdom was the Kingdom of Canaan. Which as you know, the Israelites invaded and conquered. But the point is that when this happened, the entire region of these city states and petty kingdoms was being referred to as Filistin (Palestine) by the ancient Greeks and Egyptians.

Over time, yes different empires conquered the region, including the Kingdom of Judea which replaced the Kingdom of Canaan, but the name of the larger region as Palestine (in different permutations) endured for over 4,000 years.

Historians have long debated the origins of the name “Palestine.” Most believe that the word derives from the Hebrew and Egyptian word “peleshet,” meaning “migratory.” “Peleshet” was used to describe the Philistines, who settled on the Mediterranean coastline above Egypt, in parts of what is now Israel and Gaza. The Philistines were a seafaring people of Greek origin; in other words, today’s Palestinians are unrelated to the Philistines. In fact, as a people they were completely destroyed during the sixth to fourth centuries BCE, it is clear that no modern nation comes from them, including the Palestinians.

The first use of the word “Palestine” to describe a geographic region was in the 5th century BCE, at least 700 years after the use of the word “Israel.” Like the Land of Israel, “Palestine” was a loose region, describing the coastal strip that runs from Egypt to Lebanon.

Another, newer theory asserts that “Palestine” derives from the Greek word “Palaistes,” meaning “wrestler”; as you might know, the term “Israel” means “one who wrestles with G-d.” According to this theory, the word “Palestine” is a direct, Greek translation of the word “Israel.”

Between 132 CE-136 CE, when the Romans ruled over the Land of Israel (then known as the province of “Judea,” which, as I said, is where the term “Jew” derives from), the Jewish population revolted for the third time against the foreign rulers. This revolt, known as the Bar Kokhba Revolt, ended in complete catastrophe, with 600,000-one million Jews murdered in an act of genocide or sold into slavery. Following the revolt, Emperor Hadrian changed the name of Judea to “Syria-Palestina,” marking the first time that “Palestine” was used as the official, legal name of the region. Historians have long argued that Hadrian did this to sever all Jewish ties to the land, though like nearly everything about Israel-Palestine, other historians dispute this assertion.

It’s important to note, however, that Palestine wasn’t known as Palestine from 136 CE. Its name changed periodically depending on those in power. As recently as the Ottoman period (1517-1917), the residents of what is now Israel-Palestine commonly called themselves “southern Syrians.”"Palestine" was revived as a political name under the British Mandate (1920-1948).

Language spoken as a result of conquest and colonisation do not turn inhabitants into the ethnicity that conquered and colonised them. There are plenty of Palestinian Israeli citizens that do speak Hebrew today right now. Yes, there was an Islamic empire in the region from 600-1920 CE or so but there is no evidence this was accompanied by ethnic cleansing such that the inhabitants were entirely replaced by waves of Arabic peoples.

First of all, The Arab conquerors did not peacefully and naturally integrate with the Indigenous populations; they both committed ethnic cleansing and physical genocide (for example, the 1012 Hakim Edict) as well as forcefully imposed their religion, language, customs, and identity upon the original inhabitants, thus de-Indigenizing them. Those who converted to Islam and Arabized assimilated into the identity of the colonizer and thus acquired the privilege that came with such an identity, at the expense of those who preserved their ancestral Indigenous customs and peoplehood (i.e. Jews and Samaritans).

So yes: Arabs did replace the Indigenous populations. And that is quite literally what settler colonialism is.

So not all people who identify as Arab today literally originated in the Arabian Peninsula; instead, many are people whose ancestors were Arabised through conquest and today speak Arabic and whose culture is Arab culture.

But how did Arabic become the dominant language in all these countries? Just as English became the dominant language in the United States, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand through colonialism, Arabic became the dominant language in the Middle East and North Africa through imperialism.

“Language death” is a term that describes when a language loses its last native speaker. “Language extinction” is when a language is no longer spoken by anyone, including second language speakers.
“Linguicide” refers to the extermination of a language; that is, language death that is caused by human intervention (e.g. colonialism, imperialism, language discrimination) as opposed to natural causes (e.g. natural disasters that decimate communities). It is considered a form of cultural genocide.

Hebrew has experienced language death in the past, but it never experienced language extinction. Like other Indigenous language deaths, the language death of Hebrew was caused by imperialism and colonialism; that is, it was caused by human intervention.

The first wave of decline came during the period of the Babylonian Captivity, when, in 587/6 BCE, the Neo-Babylonian Empire conquered and exiled about 25 percent of the citizens of the Kingdom of Judah. Jews then began adopting Aramaic — the language spoken among the Babylonians. However, Hebrew remained in use as a liturgical tongue.

By 200 BCE — around the time period of the Maccabean Revolt against the Seleucid Empire -- everyday colloquial Hebrew became almost fully extinct.

Then in another wave of linguicide took place during the period of the Arab colonisation of the Levant. Ancient Hebrew names for places (such as Jerusalem, or Yerushalayim in Hebrew) were replaced with Arabic names. By the ninth century, Arabic fully replaced Greek, Aramaic, and Hebrew. This was not an evolution of language, it was done by force.

Surnames are no indicator as these are often modified into the new official language rather than kept original.

My family anglicised their Irish surname to an English version at the turn of 20th C when they emigrated to Britain. That’s not what is going on here, though.

As of 1850, between 200,000-300,000 people lived in Israel-Palestine. By 1900, just 50 years later, the population of Israel-Palestine had doubled (or tripled, depending on the statistics) to around 600,000. Just around 25,000-35,000 new Jewish immigrants arrived during this period, and it’s estimated that only 15,000 stayed, due to harsh conditions. In other words, in addition to natural population growth, Arab immigration to Israel-Palestine from elsewhere was a significant factor in the drastic population increase. This is in stark contrast to the population of Israel-Palestine in the 18th and early 19th centuries, which showed virtually no growth.

Most immigrants to Israel-Palestine during this period were Egyptian Arabs. This wave of immigration started in 1829, after thousands of peasants fled harsh labor laws imposed by the Egyptian ruler, Mehmmet Ali Pasha. Travellers during this period wrote that Bedouin tribes accompanied the peasants as well. In 1831, Egypt invaded Israel-Palestine. Over 6000 Egyptian peasants crossed into Israel-Palestine during the invasion; various Bedouin tribes also arrived with the Egyptian army. Others fled to Israel- Palestine as a result of blood feuds between different clans. Many Egyptian soldiers and administrators also chose to stay in Israel-Palestine.

By the late 19th century, the city of Jaffa had Egyptian neighborhoods all over town.
The British invasion of Egypt in 1882 prompted many Egyptians to flee to Israel-Palestine. A news report from the time stated: “Many of the people come here from Egypt to wait until the danger passes.” Very few actually returned to Egypt.
Today, the third most common last name in the Palestinian territories is “El Masry” (or al-Masry), meaning, quite literally, “the Egyptian.”

Then in the 20th C, Between 60,000-100,000 Arabs immigrated to Israel-Palestine between the two world wars. There are numerous reasons for this migration, most of all, new economic opportunities. It was also during this interwar period that a cohesive Palestinian national identity emerged.

In the early 20th C, many Egyptian peasants came to Palestine to build railroads. In March 1926, a railroad from Egypt to Israel-Palestine was completed, which prompted many young people to leave by train to seek employment in Israel-Palestine. In the 1920s and especially in the 1930s, the coastal plain between Gaza and Jaffa, as well as the area between Gedara and Ness Ziona, Ramle, and Lod became densely populated with Egyptian immigrants.

During World War II, when Jewish immigration was essentially quashed, the British brought Syrian and Lebanese labourers to Israel-Palestine. Civilians also employed foreign contractors, many of whom came to Israel-Palestine without the legal paperwork. Around 2046 foreign contractors were employed in Jewish farms and kibbutzim, of which 14.5-38.3% were Egyptians and Sudanese. Government records from this period state that there were some 14,000 Egyptian and Lebanese labourers. The population increase along the southern coastal plain during this period was almost completely due to Arab immigration.

In fact DNA studies and archaeological evidence have proven consistently that Jewish Israelites and Muslim/Christian Palestinians are both descended from the original Semitic peoples of the Levant.

Both are indigenous, which is why a two state solution where the region is shared is the most just solution to the returning Jewish and the never left Palestinians.

No, you are wrong. Your claim here simply isn’t credible. Where is the 3000+ years’ worth of archeology, DNA science, historical record for those that identify as Palestinian today? It doesn’t exist. Instead, as I explained previously (see above), we have the census and migration records of the previous two centuries which underlines how the sudden population boom between 1850 and 1900 (and later) did not come from natural population growth of people already living there, but from Arab immigration. In the preceding centuries before this period, the population of what is now Israel and the Palestinian Territories had remained stagnant. Travelers at the time described Israel-Palestine as an abandoned backwater province of the Ottoman Empire. That’s not to say that it was empty or that nobody lived there, of course, but it was sparsely populated, according to the official Ottoman censuses.

“Historians have long debated the origins of the name “Palestine.” Most believe that the word derives from the Hebrew and Egyptian word “peleshet,” meaning “migratory.” “Peleshet” was used to describe the Philistines, who settled on the Mediterranean coastline above Egypt, in parts of what is now Israel and Gaza. The Philistines were a seafaring people of Greek origin; in other words, today’s Palestinians are unrelated to the Philistines. In fact, as a people they were completely destroyed during the sixth to fourth centuries BCE, it is clear that no modern nation comes from them, including the Palestinians.”

The Egyptian hieroglyphs refers to the Philistines as the Peleset, among the tribes of “Sea Peoples”. Peleset doesn’t mean migratory, but Sea People.

The Philistines aka Sea People’s were refugees from the Bronze Age collapse that settled in coastal cities along Canaan. They were not actually invaders as originally thought, but peacefully inter-married with and were absorbed by the local Palestinians as DNA studies have shown their genetic signatures gradually peter out over four generations.

Intriguingly, their DNA already had a mixture of southern European and local signatures, suggesting that within a few generations the Philistines were marrying into the local population. In fact, the European signatures were not detectable at all in the individuals buried a few centuries later in the Philistine cemetery. Genetically, by then the Philistines looked like Canaanites.”
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ancient-dna-sheds-new-light-biblical-philistines-180972561/

So today’s Palestinians, descended from the Canaanites are also descended from the Philistines. There was no ethnic cleansing or destruction, but a cultural adoption and assimilation of the incoming refugees. It is important to note these cities were already settled by Canaanites prior to the influx of Philistines, and what happens is the archaeological record of pottery changes in style to be a bit more Aegean.

The term Palestinian is the Greek name for the indigenous people that lived in Canaan who were not Israelites, it comes from the Assyrian name for Canaan referenced above of Palashtu’, ‘Palastu’ or ‘Pilistu’, and called the people who lived in this region Palestinians: ‘pa-la-as-ta-a-a’. The Ancient Egyptians like the Ancient Hebrews called the region Canaan, and Khor was Egyptian term compared to Hebrew term of Canaanite for the indigenous peoples. The permutation to Palestinian was via Greek translation of the Assyrian term in the time of Alexander the Great that was then Latinised by the Romans to Palestina.

The Stele lists the region, Canaan. It then lists the major cities conquered by Egypt- Gezer and Ashkelon were known to have an influx of Peleset- although the DNA evidence above shows instead of conquest and colonisation, it was most likely refugees settling and intermarrying with local Canaanites in these cities. Israel is included in the list of conquests within Canaan as a seperate people but with the Egyptian marker for nomadic tribe rather than city state in their heiroglyph name ring on the Merneptah Stele dated to 1208 BC (excerpt below).

It is of particular interest as it recounts his victorious battles in Libya and Canaan and because it contains the first known reference to Israel (although it refers to a tribe not a city state).

This is the earliest uncontested record of Israel afaik in the archaeological record and it is right there along with Canaan and its Cities of Ashkelon (Ashkelon), Gezer (Gaza) and Yanoam (was obliterated and location not yet found):

“Canaan is captive with all woe.
Ashkelon is conquered, Gezer seized,
Yanoam made nonexistent;
Israel is laid waste, bare of seed,
Khor is become a widow for Egypt.“

”Khor” refers to all the Canaanite peoples in Canaan except for the Israelite nomads.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/ancient-dna-sheds-new-light-biblical-philistines-180972561

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 13:26

“Another, newer theory asserts that “Palestine” derives from the Greek word “Palaistes,” meaning “wrestler”; as you might know, the term “Israel” means “one who wrestles with G-d.” According to this theory, the word “Palestine” is a direct, Greek translation of the word “Israel.””

It’s not really a theory of derivation but of a history geek joke in the chain of permutations from the earlier Assyrian Palastu as this was written by Herodotus much later in history, 400 BC or so and most classicists think he was doing a pun by sometimes misspelling it as Palaistinê.

Herodotus claimed everyone there was circumcised but we can’t take that as fact that it was 100% Jewish them as this is the same historian who had peoples with one eye (cyclops), and peoples with their heads growing out their bums, and so on.

In addition, in line with all other historians close to this time period, Palestine referred to the larger region and not just Israel. This is why we have Jewish scholars in Jerusalem literally referring to themselves as Palestinians, and referring to a “nation of Jews” as among the peoples of Palestine.

Palestine and Palestinian was a larger region with several peoples & ethnicities.
Similar to how the term “Americans” can refer to and includes all the different nations of N and S America, even though people often think first of the United States of America and not Brazil, or Canada or Mexico.

In fact, many of today’s Palestinians are descended from the ancient Jewish Israelites as well. Their ancestors originally converted to Christianity and then more later converted to Islam when those religious later emerged in the region and more converted back and forth when various conquerors- ie the Crusader Kingdoms and Islamic Empire forced conversions. A few Palestinians have even converted back to Judaism after the formation of Israel as a Jewish state.

The DNA studies showing both are indigenous were already posted by another poster, so I don’t need to repeat those.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 14:15

*we have the census and migration records of the previous two centuries which underlines how the sudden population boom between 1850 and 1900 did not come from natural population growth of people already living there, but from Arab immigration.”

There were sudden population booms everywhere on the planet then as with trains and ships, migrations was alot easier and also there was less famine and better medicine and public sanitation so more children survived - ie the natural growth rate peaked. That is why Malthus panicked everyone with his population is growing so fast we will all die of starvation by 1950 chart.

If look at the population growth by religion in Palestine from 1800 to 1947, there was no boom of Arab immigration, but rather a significant boom of Jewish immigration:

The number of Jewish Palestinians went from 7,000 in 1800 to 630,000 in 1947 a 90 fold increase.

Christian Palestinians went from 22,000 in 1800 to 143,000 in 1947 a 7 fold increase.

Muslim Palestinians went from 275,000 in 1800 to 1,970,000 in 1947 also a 7 fold increase.

The evidence shows that amongst the Christians and Muslims there was average growth and average levels of migration, but for the Jewish population the 90 fold increase was most definitely a boom in immigration. We even have the historic records to prove this coincided with the Zionist movement and migrations to Palestine before, during and after the WWs.

This table also shows that through the centuries the majority religion shifts from Judaism to Christianity in line with the expansion of the early Christianity, Christian Byzantine rule, Crusader rule and then shifts again to a Muslim majority during the centuries under Islamic empire rule which did not end until 1920. Most of this shift isn’t from mass migrations as DNA tests have shown, but waves of religious conversions of the indigenous inhabitants.

Israel invades Lebanon
SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 14:22

25milesfromhome · 04/10/2024 12:36

We do know. He knows.
Quaid Farhan Alkadi: "I'm disabled now because I wouldn't reveal to Hamas where the Israelis were. I was shot for not saying where Israelis, Jews were...Hamas saw I was really a Muslim, they said 'Take us in your car and show us where the Jews are.' I said 'It's Shabbat, I'm working, no-one is here. no-one's here. I played dumb, even if they killed me I wasn't ready to do it...To them, I'm more of an enemy than you [Jewish Israeli]."

Downplaying how his extraordinary bravery and sacrifice saved lives. Unbelievable.

I’m not downplaying his bravery at all.
I am saying he is not a proof that the only target of Hamas was Jewish Israelis or that the only motivation of Hamas was to kill Jews.

You are downplaying the fact that he and other Bedouins were equally a Hamas target and enemy. He said of Hamas:
To them, I'm more of an enemy than you [Jewish Israeli]

Hamas actions of shooting him and taking him hostage shows they treated him exactly the same way as they did some Jewish hostages. (not all hostages were deliberately shot during the capture)

Bedouins were also massacred on 7th October.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 14:28

Around 2046 foreign contractors were employed in Jewish farms and kibbutzim, of which 14.5-38.3% were Egyptians and Sudanese. Government records from this period state that there were some 14,000 Egyptian and Lebanese labourers.. These were seasonal workers. They didn’t settle. They didn’t have the right to. They worked and then went back home to Egypt and Sudan.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 14:31

Note, I have a column transcription error from the table in post above
correction

Muslim Palestinians went from 246,000 in 1800 to 1,970,000 1,181,000 in 1947 a 7 5 fold increase.

This is the lowest growth in the region with Christians increasing 7 fold and Jewish increasing a whopping 90 fold.

So there is zero evidence of a boom of Arab Muslim immigrants between 1800-1947

Silence1 · 04/10/2024 15:04

I haven't gone back through these long posts so I don't know if anyone shared this short report of Lebanese deaths by Channel Four. It's so sad.
“I’m sorry I couldn’t save you, Julia…In a single second, Israel—created by you, in Britain - changed the course of my life. I lost my wife, I lost my daughter, my house.”
Channel 4 News on X: "There is grief and pain in Lebanon as families bury their dead following Israeli strikes on the country. @SecKermani reports from Lebanon. https://t.co/Nb16M4KsIQ" / X

x.com

https://x.com/Channel4News/status/1841199239419887894

25milesfromhome · 04/10/2024 15:18

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 04/10/2024 14:22

I’m not downplaying his bravery at all.
I am saying he is not a proof that the only target of Hamas was Jewish Israelis or that the only motivation of Hamas was to kill Jews.

You are downplaying the fact that he and other Bedouins were equally a Hamas target and enemy. He said of Hamas:
To them, I'm more of an enemy than you [Jewish Israeli]

Hamas actions of shooting him and taking him hostage shows they treated him exactly the same way as they did some Jewish hostages. (not all hostages were deliberately shot during the capture)

Bedouins were also massacred on 7th October.

Edited

Stop moving the goal posts.

I never said that the only target of Hamas was Jews or the only motivation of Hamas was to kill Jews (although continuing to insist that this wasn't the primary target or motivation is quite...something).

You* said his Muslim identity and Arab ethnicity got him shot and kidnapped, Alkadi himself said it was his Muslim Arab Israeli identity, living alongside his Jewish Israeli neighbours and refusal to lead Hamas to any Jews that made him an enemy of Hamas and got him shot. You *downplayed the circumstances of his shooting and kidnapping and the value of his life "to Israel" in relation to Jewish hostages until you realised you were wrong because you hadn't bothered to listen to what he said, hence your backtracking and twisting my words.

You said: It is a fact that Jewish hostages would be considered more valuable than Bedouin ones to Israel. This is clearly not a fact. I've seen considerably more awareness and advocacy for Bedouin victims and hostages of October 7th from Israeli and Jewish sources than from Western or Arabic ones.

SharonEllis · 04/10/2024 15:26

25milesfromhome · 04/10/2024 15:18

Stop moving the goal posts.

I never said that the only target of Hamas was Jews or the only motivation of Hamas was to kill Jews (although continuing to insist that this wasn't the primary target or motivation is quite...something).

You* said his Muslim identity and Arab ethnicity got him shot and kidnapped, Alkadi himself said it was his Muslim Arab Israeli identity, living alongside his Jewish Israeli neighbours and refusal to lead Hamas to any Jews that made him an enemy of Hamas and got him shot. You *downplayed the circumstances of his shooting and kidnapping and the value of his life "to Israel" in relation to Jewish hostages until you realised you were wrong because you hadn't bothered to listen to what he said, hence your backtracking and twisting my words.

You said: It is a fact that Jewish hostages would be considered more valuable than Bedouin ones to Israel. This is clearly not a fact. I've seen considerably more awareness and advocacy for Bedouin victims and hostages of October 7th from Israeli and Jewish sources than from Western or Arabic ones.

Anyone can see you're right. The need to split hairs over the antisemitic intent of Hamas is just bizarre - but clear for all to see.

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