Hamas leader killed

[Billyballyboo]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jul/31/middle-east-crisis-live-updates-hamas-leader-ismail-haniyeh-killed-iran-israel-gaza-war

Any thoughts on this?

I have no idea where these links are from they are 20 years old and the fact you are posting them demonstrates how you are hellbent on dehumanising these people.

@Kriscross @Beljin

In Islam, martyrs are those who die violently in battle, or "fighting in the path of God". According to the Quran and hadith, martyrs are given many privileges and favors by Allah, including:
• Forgiveness: All sins are forgiven as soon as the first drop of blood is shed
• Paradise: The martyr can see their palace in Paradise before they die
• No punishment: The martyr will not be tested or punished in the grave
• Mercy: Allah's mercy and forgiveness are greater than anything else

We believe that when a person dies in the way of Allah, they are not dead but alive in heaven.

It's a way of comfort to those left behind grieving their loss of a loved one.

It's fine if you don't believe in it or don't agree with it but please don't say it's messed up when you haven't understood the reason behind their reaction.

I wasn't aware of that but it was obvious to me it was something like that from reading the links posted, shame others can't think rationally and just see what they want to see.

Source: Palwatch 🙄

some people are just wilfully blind and choose not to understand things but feel it’s better to be offensive than anything else.

I noticed that too. Interesting.

"In Islam, the concept of martyrdom (shahada in Arabic) refers to the act of sacrificing one's life to testify and bear witness to one's faith and a noble cause. On a deeper spiritual level, it represents the ultimate demonstration of one's commitment and devotion to God and religious principles."

When I read this I wonder what is included in sacrificing ones life ... does that include hamas fighters? They sacrifice themselves for what they believe as well as raping, torturing and kidnapping along the way. They also use the term martyred as many appear to. Does it have different meanings if for a scum hamas rapist? Hopefully so since any god who is good wouldn't want rapists to be given rewards

Genuine question, are hamas fighters martyred and given the same rewards?

Add to above, in the belief system of course.

any god who is good wouldn't want rapists to be given rewards.

Add to this thought the question: What do the Israeli soldiers, charged with aggravated abuse, including rape of a Palestinian soldier, think their reward will be, exoneration and public adoration?
There is no defending weaponised rape on either side. I’m not accusing anyone on this thread of doing so. But there are people who, in their blind support of one side, will justify that side’s most malignant, evil acts.

Oh and no need to zap me. What I’ve written is word for word in The Guardian, Times of Israel, and Haaretz. I’m merely sharing secondhand news that’s being globally reported by journalists in the region.

!סַבָּבָּה

With all due respect to Amos Oz, he wasn't a researcher in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism. Indeed, several posters here wouldn't like a good deal of his views such as this one:

"What would you do if your neighbor across the street sits down on the balcony, puts his little boy on his lap and starts shooting machine gun fire into your nursery? What would you do if your neighbor across the street digs a tunnel from his nursery to your nursery in order to blow up your home or in order to kidnap your family?"

• Amos Oz on Hamas human shield tactic in 2014

Personally, I look at the work of actual researchers in this field on that issue and others.

Indeed, a person living in a region or country of varying degrees of conflict have perceptions of what's happening. But that doesn't translate to those perceptions being accurate in reality, necessarily.

Again, researchers in the field can be very informative even if acquiring empirical evidence on the subject in question can be very challenging (it's elusive).

DownNative

Are you an expert? I dare say he was more of an expert than you.

Oh dear....Appeal To Authority Fallacy in response. 🙈

Like I said, I look at the work of actual researchers in this field on that issue and others. Helpful I know one or two myself. 👍

For those who are unaware, Amos Oz was a short fiction story writer, essayist and journalist.

Not a professional researcher in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism at all. IIRC, he never claimed to be.

DownNative Shall I quote Edward Said instead of Amos Oz? Or am I not allowed to utilise the insight and expertise of the dead? Or… more likely, you won’t respect the words of one of the greatest experts and academics on the region’s history because he’s Palestinian and therefore not reinforcing your biased narrative.

@Kriscross you know when the mothers say my child has become a martyr, it doesn't mean that they are glad they are killed but rather as a means of comfort that they are in a better place.

There's so many different causes of death that can make someone a martyr, including things like dying in a fire, dying from drowning, a woman dying during child birth and any sort of unjustified or oppressive death. So for example when the bombing of the refugee camp happen that sparked a fire and caused many deaths, they would all be considered martyrs as they were killed unjustly.
I can try find all the different examples of what would make one a shaheed if you want. And no, someone who was killed after commiting a atrocity themselves would not be considered a martyr.

Saying that, there are extremists who would change or manipulate the concept of martyrdom for their own agendas.

Ah, Edward Said....so beloved of the Provos. 🤦‍♂️

Do yourself a favour and look at what professional researchers in the field of terrorism, security and counter-terrorism have concluded through their work.

There are some excellent researchers on the subject.

@Kriscross "Genuine question, are hamas fighters martyred and given the same rewards?"

No not if they have committed acts that is considered an atrocity and goes against Islam.

It is not important what Islam itself says in relation to the things Hamas does because its more important what Hamas thinks.

They have a very specific view of martyrdom that absolutely serves their own aims, ends and purposes.

Put it this way, Hamas has an ideology that is Jihadist in nature and, whilst it is not mainstream Islamist, it is a subset of it.

There is a difference between Jihadism and Islamism. This is from the BBC in 2014 - consider it as a primer:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30411519

So, does Jihadism reward Hamas terrorists and other like-minded terrorist organisations?

Yes - the best known example is the concept of 72 virgins in Heaven.

IMO, you have to draw a clear distinction between the religious belief system of Islam and the terrorist belief system of Jihad.

Doing so also means an individual would be much less likely to fall into the problem of Islamophobia since you're showing you understand the important differences between them.

More, importantly, you can distinguish between them.

Nothing much to add here, except my sadness for those mothers who have sought to find meaning and comfort in their children’s deaths, and are now being portrayed by some as extremists who wished this to happen.

Are the mothers of soldiers in Israel who have died complicit in their deaths? By raising them in a society with conscription? Shall we now blame them, instead of the ones who actually carried out the violence.

I understand why Palestinians try to take some comfort from their belief that their loved ones are with God.
I don't agree with everything from @Beljin post but I do agree with the following point
“The question we should be asking, yet hardly anyone does, is why aren't the Palestinian kids in Gaza hiding in bomb shelters? Why does't the Gazaan government - the very same government that's been in power for the past 18 years - allow the civilians to shelter in the tunnels? “

I'm not sure what's wrong with Palwatch or why my post has been deleted. Regardless, even on twitter there are many examples of (among others):

*children saying on TV (children's programs) that they desire to be martyrs

*parents (fathers and mothers) expressing joy that their child merited to be a martyr (read: murdering terrorist killed in the act)

*teenagers expressing a desire to become martyrs, then going out and acting upon it (by murdering innocent civilians)

*the handing out of sweets and sweet coffee at funerals of dead terrorists

There is a systematic desire and plan of action to maximise civilian casualties, the more gruesome the better. To deny this shows utter detachment from truth and reality.

@Beljin to want martyrdom it's not an act to maximise civilian death. You need to understand Islam to understand what you've written isn't true.

@Limesodaagain in regards to bomb shelters, there's reasons given for the lack of it but I agree there should have been more provisions made for civilian safety.
In regards to why civilians are not sheltering in tunnels, it would be considered that the civilians there are 'human shields' as the tunnels are a military target and the Palestinians know this, it would be unwise for them to hide there even if Hamas allowed it.
Safe zones, schools, hospitals, refugee camps etc are seen as a better and safer option, although we have seen often they are futile too.