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Conflict in the Middle East
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26
PeasfullPerson · 31/07/2024 13:23

Flibflobflibflob · 31/07/2024 10:31

Sorry it’s a joke to think any Iranian president allowed to take office under the ayatollah’s is “ moderate”.

The Palestinians factions haven’t agreed anything, they are trying to figure out a way for Hamas to be protected after the war. It’s not for Palestinian civilians , it’s about Hamas’s survival and the PLO getting a foothold back in Gaza.

How is this provoking fighting within arab countries? It’s actually putting them all on the same page. What it’s actually doing is pushing Hezbollah and Iran into a confrontation they don’t want. You will either see a barrage against Israel that will force the USA to step in or an anaemic response which confirms that neither Hezbollah or Tehran actually want a fight.

Please re read and take note that I wrote ‘seemingly moderate’.

Information on the agreement here, which was welcome by the United Nations https://dppa.un.org/en/un-chief-welcomes-agreement-between-palestinian-factions-fatah-and-hamas

No, the countries impacted and the leaders within them will not all be on the same page, as is happens in general in other countries.

You don’t see any significance, with taking out a key Palestinian political figure, to coincide with political changes in Palestine and Iran?

What are your thoughts on why now then?

UN chief welcomes agreement between Palestinian factions Fatah and Hamas | Department of Political and Peacebuilding Affairs

The UN Secretary-General has welcomed a new agreement signed on Tuesday in Beijing by Hamas and Fatah, together with smaller Palestinian factions, aimed at ending years of political rivalry as the war in Gaza grinds on.

https://dppa.un.org/en/un-chief-welcomes-agreement-between-palestinian-factions-fatah-and-hamas

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 31/07/2024 13:25

“I read that he wasn't a negotiator.”

Are any of them negotiators? I feel like we’ll just get a sad echo if we collectively holler for just one negotiator to step up. The problem is, every leader in this conflict feels that he has way too much to lose by negotiating.
The gains from negotiating aren’t worth the costs that come with it. Not my views! But I imagine this is the thought process rattling around their heads.

Ottervision · 31/07/2024 13:29

Killingoffmyflowersonebyone · 31/07/2024 07:49

The problem in Palestine is they LIVE and build their bunkers under flats. Deliberately. There’s literally entire articles by places like Chatham house about why they do this - precisely so Israel has no choice. It’s why they’ve survived as long as they have.

Hmm it does seem very much a choice to actively kill children or not.

blackcherryconserve · 31/07/2024 14:33

Killingoffmyflowersonebyone · 31/07/2024 07:49

The problem in Palestine is they LIVE and build their bunkers under flats. Deliberately. There’s literally entire articles by places like Chatham house about why they do this - precisely so Israel has no choice. It’s why they’ve survived as long as they have.

I'm guessing most people don't have a clue about Chatham House!

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 31/07/2024 14:40

blackcherryconserve · 31/07/2024 14:33

I'm guessing most people don't have a clue about Chatham House!

I think the poster broke the Chatham House Rule by mentioning Chatham House.
On MN of all places. 😁

Beth216 · 31/07/2024 15:19

Dulra · 31/07/2024 08:00

So always an excuse to keep obliterating Gaza and killing, maiming, starving innocent children! Seriously listen to yourself.

Yes, very grim.

The terrorists are living under children's homes so we have to kill the children so we can get to the terrorists. Where else on earth could you imagine that being seen as in any way acceptable?

4 people were killed in this 'precision strike' of Haniyeh, two of them were children. And people are saying it has made their day. I couldn't care less that Haniyeh has been taken out, good riddance, but crowing over a situation where 74 people have been injured and 4 killed including two innocent children is just vile.

DownNative · 31/07/2024 15:19

Dave is spot on here. 👇 The kind of news coverage we're seeing in regards to Haniyeh isn't new (seen it before myself). See too the claims of Hamas having moderated their position since 2017 which isn't accurate at all.

It's a sign of a media and society that is pretty detached from the realities on the ground of warfare, terrorism and counter-terrorism.

Hamas leader killed
Hamas leader killed
snygghygge · 31/07/2024 15:23

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Flibflobflibflob · 31/07/2024 15:29

PeasfullPerson · 31/07/2024 13:23

Please re read and take note that I wrote ‘seemingly moderate’.

Information on the agreement here, which was welcome by the United Nations https://dppa.un.org/en/un-chief-welcomes-agreement-between-palestinian-factions-fatah-and-hamas

No, the countries impacted and the leaders within them will not all be on the same page, as is happens in general in other countries.

You don’t see any significance, with taking out a key Palestinian political figure, to coincide with political changes in Palestine and Iran?

What are your thoughts on why now then?

No, I see it as Benjamin Netanyahu hanging on for his dear life within Israel. I think the change of government in the USA has far more of an impact frankly, he needs a commitment to ongoing support regardless of who takes power. It also forces Hezbollah and Iran to exposure. Will they risk being bombarded by the Americans?

These are not significant political changes, a change of president who has no power is not significant. There have been several previous agreements between Fateh and Hamas. If this one succeeds it’ll be because hamas is desperate, no love lost between hamas and Fateh (for bloody good reason). Hamas are not suddenly going to disband and stop taking funding from Iran. It doesn’t matter if it re-brands, it’s the same beast.

Fundamentally the policies of those parties remain unchanged.

DownNative · 31/07/2024 15:29

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This is the kind of sneaking regarder view that can get your comment deleted. 🤷‍♂️

If you believe that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter', then you are arguing that something being terrorism is really just a matter of opinion.

One perspective with a claimed equal opposite perspective. This kind of thinking easily gives rise to False Balance aka bothsidesism, False Equivalence, False Dichotomy and so on. These are logical fallacies.

If 'terrorism' is, as you say, really just a matter of opinion, then your attempted cliched statement about a government leader not being interested in peace is just an expression of opinion. If it's just an opinion, then other opinions are available and just as valid.

So, what is the view of various Sovereign Governments, European Union and courts on Hamas?

Since 2001, the Council of the European Union has adopted a "common position" and a regulation to combat terrorism.

In 2014 after Hamas contested their designation as a terrorist organisation, the EU's General Court found the EU's terrorist designation had been "based not on acts examined and confirmed in decisions of competent authorities but on factual imputations derived from the press and the internet". Furthermore, the General Court asserted that, "The court stresses that those annulments, on fundamental procedural grounds, do not imply any substantive assessment of the question of the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group within the meaning of the common position."

Unsurprisingly, Hamas took this as validation of their own acts of terrorism which they claim was supported under international law as "resistance".

In 2019, the European Court of Justice overturned the ruling of the General Court. The ECJ asserted below:

"The Court of Justice, sitting as the Grand Chamber, sets aside the judgment of the General Court of 4 September 2019. It finds that the General Court erred in law in ruling that the statements of reasons relating to the retention of Hamas on the lists annexed to the acts at issue should – in the same way as the acts themselves, which contain a general statement of reasons – have been signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council. In addition, those statements of reasons were adopted by the Council simultaneously with those acts, to which they were inseparably attached, and their authenticity has not been validly challenged."

And:

"...that the Council produced documents demonstrating that the statements of reasons were adopted simultaneously with the acts at issue signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council, to which they were inseparably attached, and that Hamas has not put forward any evidence that could call into question the fact that the text of the statements of reasons that were notified to it and the text adopted by the Council correspond perfectly. Since the authenticity of those statements of reasons has not been validly challenged by Hamas, the Court concludes that the action brought by Hamas must be dismissed in its entirety."

So, the European Union was AND remains correct to designate Hamas NOT as a so-called "resistance movement", but as a TERRORIST organisation. Especially since Hamas did NOT argue against the authenticity of the CoE's statements of reason that led to this designation in the first place!

That leads us to the designation of Hamas as a terrorist organisation by, aside from the EU, Sovereign States such as the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Paraguay, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina and others.

It surprises nobody that Israel designates Hamas as a terrorist organisation as well.

In 2023, "The United States welcomes Germany’s decision to ban activities supporting Hamas" and asserted that "Hamas is a dangerous terrorist organization, which engages in barbaric actions and has compounded and perpetuated the suffering of the Palestinian people at every step of this crisis".

And:

"Authorities in Germany's most populous state, North Rhine-Westphalia, have outlawed a Palestinian organization that promotes Hamas and calls for the eradication of Israel on Thursday".17 May 2024

In the United States, the so-called "charity" Holy Land Foundation For Relief and Development was accused of funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas. On 24th November 2008, their five leaders were convicted of 108 counts. Other so-called charities including Holy Land Foundation (HLF), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), and Kind Hearts were also shutdown by United States authorities for funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas.

The "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" slogan implicitly holds (paradoxically) that ‘terrorism’ is inherently bad while ‘freedom fighting’ is good, and that labelling an act freedom fighting precludes it from also being viewed as terrorism. Making it a nonsensical statement, naturally, whilst serving as motivation for terrorist groups to manipulate as many people as possible to believe they're not terrorists.

But it is supporters of terrorist organisations themselves, their fellow travellers and their sneaking regarders who actively attempt to push that flawed cliché. Usually to people who have not had to think very much, if at all, about the problem of terrorism.

Hence, websites have a legal duty and requirement to observe the law. That means passing information on to the relevant authorities, deleting comments and, yes, banning accounts who attempt to push support for terrorist groups, explicitly and/or implicitly, overtly and/or covertly.

It would seem that some advocates of the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" school of thought have a bit of a problem.

As Randy Borum, Directors of Psychology of Terrorism Initiative said:

"When we abandon the cliché that one person’s terrorist is the other’s freedom fighter, we can better understand (or adopt) Jenkin’s definition that: “One man’s terrorist is everyone’s terrorist”.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

Parkingt111 · 31/07/2024 15:48

DownNative · 31/07/2024 13:20

Sinwar is and has always been key to Hamas' agreeing to a deal - not Haniyeh.

As I said, think of Hamas as having a two tier leadership which runs somewhat parallel in structure. The one in Gaza is more important than the one outside Gaza - especially in military, political and diplomatic terms.

@DownNative @blackcherryconserve

I thought he was part of ceasefire negotiations and I believe I am correct. There's only so much sinwar can do from his hideout in his tunnels

This is a good read but if you don't want to read the full article this is the main part:

But while details of the attack slowly emerge, its political consequences are also coming into focus.
The most obvious is the likely damage to fragile efforts to negotiate a ceasefire in Gaza.
Ismail Haniyeh may not have been in charge of day-to-day events on the ground in Gaza – that is the domain of the military commander Yahya Sinwar – but as the Hamas leader in exile he was a critical interlocutor in negotiations brokered by Qatar, the US and Egypt.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clly4v4l13vo

Palestinians return to their homes after the withdrawal of Israeli army from the eastern Khan Yunis, Gaza on July 30, 2024.

Haniyeh killed: What does it mean for Gaza ceasefire?

As Hamas's political leader, Ismail Haniyeh was a key interlocutor in the Gaza ceasefire negotiations.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clly4v4l13vo

Auvergne63 · 31/07/2024 15:49

jannier · 31/07/2024 09:27

And Hamas are innocent of using human shields whilst attacking innocents and provoking Israel who had two choices to ignore it and allow more attacks or fight back and be condemned either way a win for Hamas who don't care about innocent lives

I don't think it's black and white. Israel has demonstrated their ability to strike with precision. They could have done the same in Gaza; instead they decided to drop huge bombs on an area of 141 square miles.
The Gaza strip is one of the world's most inhabited region. Israel knows this.
The killing of this Hamas leader ( a vile man) has in, effect, stopped the ceasefire talks as he was the head negotiator.
One may be entitled to think that it is not a coincidence but a deliberate attempt to stop any chance of peace.

blackcherryconserve · 31/07/2024 15:55

Auvergne63 · 31/07/2024 15:49

I don't think it's black and white. Israel has demonstrated their ability to strike with precision. They could have done the same in Gaza; instead they decided to drop huge bombs on an area of 141 square miles.
The Gaza strip is one of the world's most inhabited region. Israel knows this.
The killing of this Hamas leader ( a vile man) has in, effect, stopped the ceasefire talks as he was the head negotiator.
One may be entitled to think that it is not a coincidence but a deliberate attempt to stop any chance of peace.

Not so easy to strike with precision when Hamas is fighting in miles and miles of underground tunnels underneath homes, schools, hospitals etc and can move instantly. That is why so many civilians have died.

YouJustDoYou · 31/07/2024 15:57

Dulra · 31/07/2024 07:58

The Hamas leader is dead, time to leave the innocent Palestinians alone to rebuild, ceasefire needs to be called for now

They voted for him.

Auvergne63 · 31/07/2024 16:08

blackcherryconserve · 31/07/2024 15:55

Not so easy to strike with precision when Hamas is fighting in miles and miles of underground tunnels underneath homes, schools, hospitals etc and can move instantly. That is why so many civilians have died.

I never said it was easy to do so but the responsibility for dropping these bombs ( the equivalent of 2 nuclear bombs since October) lays at the feet of the Israeli government. The "they made us do it because they are hiding in tunnels" argument is flawed on so many levels, especially knowing that some hostages are kept above grounds. It shows Netanyahu total disregard for their lives as well as for the lives of Palestinians. The man is a monster as much as Hamas is.

Dulra · 31/07/2024 16:18

YouJustDoYou · 31/07/2024 15:57

They voted for him.

Close to 20 years ago and even if they did do they deserve to be killed because of their vote? What messed up logic is that? and what about the thousands of children killed?

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 31/07/2024 16:26

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Auvergne63 · 31/07/2024 16:28

YouJustDoYou · 31/07/2024 15:57

They voted for him.

The children? The babies? The unborn? Really?

DownNative · 31/07/2024 16:30

Parkingt111 · 31/07/2024 15:48

@DownNative @blackcherryconserve

I thought he was part of ceasefire negotiations and I believe I am correct. There's only so much sinwar can do from his hideout in his tunnels

This is a good read but if you don't want to read the full article this is the main part:

But while details of the attack slowly emerge, its political consequences are also coming into focus.
The most obvious is the likely damage to fragile efforts to negotiate a ceasefire in Gaza.
Ismail Haniyeh may not have been in charge of day-to-day events on the ground in Gaza – that is the domain of the military commander Yahya Sinwar – but as the Hamas leader in exile he was a critical interlocutor in negotiations brokered by Qatar, the US and Egypt.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/clly4v4l13vo

I would advise you not to build a Strawman Argument Fallacy since I didn't argue Haniyeh wasn't part of Hamas' negotiating team. IIRC, they had five who were, give or take.

But the point is that Haniyeh wasn't the most important voice within Hamas on that. Yahya Sinwar was AND remains the most important on that within Hamas.

Hence, my point of viewing Hamas having a two tiered leadership that runs parallel - one in Gaza and one outside Gaza. I'm familiar with this kind of structure on a much smaller scale, but the principle remains. The leadership inside Gaza is much more important than the one outwith it.

Failure to understand that is a failure to understand Hamas in every way possible. @Flibflobflibflob is on the right track to recognising how Hamas thinks, behaves and operates.

DownNative · 31/07/2024 16:35

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As I said, you reduce it down to mere opinion which takes you back to my points, including the bit about the law.

Hence, MN has a legal duty to remove such posts otherwise they can find themselves liable to legal action.

Resistance is defined in law as being actions that is NOT those employed by Hamas. Congratulations on attempting to define Hamas as engaged in "resistance"(!) 🤦‍♂️

I see the other cliché of oppression breeding more terrorism which is another thing that's definitely not axiomatic.

Parkingt111 · 31/07/2024 16:37

@DownNative I wasn't arguing anything, not sure why you think I am.
Simply pointing out as a general point that he was involved in negotiations and this assassination could have a negative impact on the ongoing negotiations.

I'm well aware of Hamas's two tier leadership. Haniyeh was probably one of the most significant political figures from Hamas that resided outside of Gaza.

DownNative · 31/07/2024 16:40

Parkingt111 · 31/07/2024 16:37

@DownNative I wasn't arguing anything, not sure why you think I am.
Simply pointing out as a general point that he was involved in negotiations and this assassination could have a negative impact on the ongoing negotiations.

I'm well aware of Hamas's two tier leadership. Haniyeh was probably one of the most significant political figures from Hamas that resided outside of Gaza.

Then there was no point in you tagging me to say that which I had previously stated. 🤷‍♂️

Perhaps you should look again at your framing because it reasonably looks like you're attempting to not only argue that point with me, but to educate me on it....

Parkingt111 · 31/07/2024 16:42

@DownNative everyday is a learning day

DownNative · 31/07/2024 16:44

Parkingt111 · 31/07/2024 16:42

@DownNative everyday is a learning day

Except you told me absolutely nothing new. If you actually had, you'd have a point. 🤷‍♂️

Parkingt111 · 31/07/2024 16:46

DownNative · 31/07/2024 16:44

Except you told me absolutely nothing new. If you actually had, you'd have a point. 🤷‍♂️

That still doesn't negate my point.

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