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Conflict in the Middle East

The Lancet publish article estimating 186,000 death toll in Gaza

216 replies

AhNowTed · 08/07/2024 07:01

The Lancet has just published this article "conservatively" estimating that the death toll in the Gaza genocide could be 186,000 people or more. That's 8% of the population, obliterated.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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AhNowTed · 08/07/2024 20:28

EasterIssland · 08/07/2024 20:12

Interview to American doctor

As many amputees as there are from trauma, there are amputees from diabetes uncontrolled, because they’re not allowing insulin to be brought in” “ The total death toll is a severe undercount. It’s 5, 6 times the number because people are dying from treatable injuries … lack of medical supplies”

https://x.com/brokenmirror33/status/1809974437380301150

I told on another thread about my daughter.

She has complications derived from eczema.

Severe painful herpes and streptococcal infections covering a large portion of her body, which can lead to other complications including kidney failure.

Requiring intravenous Zovirax and antibiotics.

Completely treatable.

She would have died months ago in Gaza.

OP posts:
Kendodd · 08/07/2024 20:47

Those disputing the number or minimising, lets say they over estimated and its 'only' 100k, that's still 5% of the population. That would be like 3.5 million people in the UK killed.
How many is too many? Is there no number that’s too high?

keenforhelp · 08/07/2024 21:18

Thread title and first post completely misleading

anotherlevel · 08/07/2024 21:20

I'm sure that's already been discussed

EasterIssland · 08/07/2024 21:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Scirocco · 09/07/2024 07:54

The Lancet is one of the most rigorous academic medical journals and everything that gets published in it has to meet certain standards, depending upon the type of article. Medical and scientific journals' 'letters pages' are different from letters pages in newspapers and magazines - the pieces published there are still reviewed and held to certain standards. While the piece that is the focus of this thread is not a fully-completed S-tier research project, it is still more deserving of consideration and reflection than most of the media articles published and held up as 'fact', which go through considerably less scrutiny pre-publication.

This is another example of double standards coming into play against Palestinians and majority-Muslim demographics. When a journalist with a track record of political bias writes an opinion piece that is critical or minimising of Palestinians and Muslims, it is held up as something which must be given weight and value, respect for it is demanded, and it is cited as evidence even when it's just someone's opinion. When professionals with relevant expertise write a piece which is published in a highly respected academic journal, but that piece does not minimise casualties and in fact extrapolates that casualties could end up being considerably higher than what is generally being discussed in the media, it is subjected to a much greater degree of criticism and efforts to dismiss it. It is also very telling that people (in general, not in relation to any particular people) can read published articles about horrendous death tolls and suffering, but express very little (if any) sadness or compassion for the population affected and instead jump straight to being 'experts' in critical appraisal - it speaks volumes about how certain populations have successfully been de-humanised in the eyes of many, that people no longer feel or feel the need to express empathy for those populations in the same way as they would for other populations.

DownNative · 09/07/2024 08:52

I see the title has still yet to be corrected. 🧐

It's a non-peer reviewed letter which contains a future looking set of speculation. Nothing more and nothing less.

And it's not a study from Lancet or their view.

The Lancet publish article estimating 186,000 death toll in Gaza
The Lancet publish article estimating 186,000 death toll in Gaza
Dulra · 09/07/2024 09:38

Scirocco · 09/07/2024 07:54

The Lancet is one of the most rigorous academic medical journals and everything that gets published in it has to meet certain standards, depending upon the type of article. Medical and scientific journals' 'letters pages' are different from letters pages in newspapers and magazines - the pieces published there are still reviewed and held to certain standards. While the piece that is the focus of this thread is not a fully-completed S-tier research project, it is still more deserving of consideration and reflection than most of the media articles published and held up as 'fact', which go through considerably less scrutiny pre-publication.

This is another example of double standards coming into play against Palestinians and majority-Muslim demographics. When a journalist with a track record of political bias writes an opinion piece that is critical or minimising of Palestinians and Muslims, it is held up as something which must be given weight and value, respect for it is demanded, and it is cited as evidence even when it's just someone's opinion. When professionals with relevant expertise write a piece which is published in a highly respected academic journal, but that piece does not minimise casualties and in fact extrapolates that casualties could end up being considerably higher than what is generally being discussed in the media, it is subjected to a much greater degree of criticism and efforts to dismiss it. It is also very telling that people (in general, not in relation to any particular people) can read published articles about horrendous death tolls and suffering, but express very little (if any) sadness or compassion for the population affected and instead jump straight to being 'experts' in critical appraisal - it speaks volumes about how certain populations have successfully been de-humanised in the eyes of many, that people no longer feel or feel the need to express empathy for those populations in the same way as they would for other populations.

that people no longer feel or feel the need to express empathy for those populations in the same way as they would for other populations.

Didn't take long to demonstrate your point

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 10:51

DownNative · 09/07/2024 08:52

I see the title has still yet to be corrected. 🧐

It's a non-peer reviewed letter which contains a future looking set of speculation. Nothing more and nothing less.

And it's not a study from Lancet or their view.

Yes, quite extraordinary that this "article" is being lauded as factual.

DownNative · 09/07/2024 11:09

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 10:51

Yes, quite extraordinary that this "article" is being lauded as factual.

Yes, and also being passed off as a study from The Lancet at the same time. 🤦‍♂️

But not surprising.

Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:29

DownNative · 09/07/2024 11:09

Yes, and also being passed off as a study from The Lancet at the same time. 🤦‍♂️

But not surprising.

You're quite bias in the thread titles you take issue with. No comment from you on the Glastonbury thread which hasn't produced a shred of evidence but yet major issue here. Would changing the word from article to letter in the thread title pass your bias thread title standards

Yes, and also being passed off as a study from The Lancet at the same time
That was discussed and corrected in the first two pages of this thread rtft.

DownNative · 09/07/2024 11:38

Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:29

You're quite bias in the thread titles you take issue with. No comment from you on the Glastonbury thread which hasn't produced a shred of evidence but yet major issue here. Would changing the word from article to letter in the thread title pass your bias thread title standards

Yes, and also being passed off as a study from The Lancet at the same time
That was discussed and corrected in the first two pages of this thread rtft.

Uh, uh...yet misleading thread title still remains.

I neither read nor post in most threads, but half decent attempt at very blatant Whataboutery from you.

As usual.... 🤦‍♂️

Silence1 · 09/07/2024 11:40

I linked to this before from the Lancet and I think that one paragraph should be thought about by our war cheer leaders on here:

"Although valid mortality counts are important, the situation in Gaza is severe, with high levels of civilian harm and extremely restricted access to aid. Efforts to dispute mortality reporting should not distract from the humanitarian imperative to save civilian lives by ensuring appropriate medical supplies, food, water, and fuel are provided immediately."
No evidence of inflated mortality reporting from the Gaza Ministry of Health - The Lancet

Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:41

DownNative · 09/07/2024 11:38

Uh, uh...yet misleading thread title still remains.

I neither read nor post in most threads, but half decent attempt at very blatant Whataboutery from you.

As usual.... 🤦‍♂️

So why comment on a thread you haven't read? and insult people commenting on that thread when you haven't even read what they said?
How is the title misleading? By one word?

It is not whataboutery to point out your obvious bias and double standards

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 11:51

Only the OP can request the thread title change despite the gross inaccuracies but the thread title still remains in its original wording.

EasterIssland · 09/07/2024 11:51

Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:41

So why comment on a thread you haven't read? and insult people commenting on that thread when you haven't even read what they said?
How is the title misleading? By one word?

It is not whataboutery to point out your obvious bias and double standards

I agree with you. It’s interesting how the title of one thread is ok but but not another one. Double standards ? Or censorship ?

EasterIssland · 09/07/2024 11:54

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 11:51

Only the OP can request the thread title change despite the gross inaccuracies but the thread title still remains in its original wording.

Edited

Then accept it. Op might not want to change the title and they’re within their right.

ps. It’s not the only thread whose title might be inflammatory and might have inaccuracies

Alwayslookonthe · 09/07/2024 11:54

DownNative · 09/07/2024 11:09

Yes, and also being passed off as a study from The Lancet at the same time. 🤦‍♂️

But not surprising.

It seems crazy that Palestinian advocates don’t want any criticism of the letter sent to the Lancet.

Someone asked Martin McKee an author of the letter for clarification.
“ MANY are citing this letter to say that 186,000 have been killed in the past 9 months. Is that an accurate reading of your work?”

Martin McKee
” No”
https://x.com/hijadevidriero_/status/1810377543834563036/photo/1

Martin McKee further clarified
“And as our piece has been greatly misquoted and misinterpreted, can we clarify that all we are saying is that the Gaza figures are credible & indirect toll will, in time, likely be much higher. The figure we give is purely illustrative.”

Anyone who wants to read point by point what is wrong with the letter’s sources and evidence.
https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1797648673964282104

x.com

https://x.com/hijadevidriero_/status/1810377543834563036/photo/1

Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:54

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 11:51

Only the OP can request the thread title change despite the gross inaccuracies but the thread title still remains in its original wording.

Edited

the gross inaccuracies
Could you point these gross inaccuracies out please?

DownNative · 09/07/2024 11:54

Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:41

So why comment on a thread you haven't read? and insult people commenting on that thread when you haven't even read what they said?
How is the title misleading? By one word?

It is not whataboutery to point out your obvious bias and double standards

Huh?

I've read THIS thread. 🤦‍♂️

Hence, my first line of noting thread title has STILL not been altered. And, yes, I did see the OPs post on page 3.

Only they can request the title to be changed, so why have they not?

And, yes, it is Whataboutery for you to bring in an unrelated thread to this one. One I haven't read, I don't think. 🤦‍♂️

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 11:55

Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:41

So why comment on a thread you haven't read? and insult people commenting on that thread when you haven't even read what they said?
How is the title misleading? By one word?

It is not whataboutery to point out your obvious bias and double standards

No, the title is not misleading by just one word.

Here are some of the reasons - apologies that these include previously posted reasons:
1.) The death toll in Gaza is still officially under 40,000 - the thread title says it is quadruple that
2.) The thread title suggests it is an article but the link is to a letter
3.) The Lancet published an article - inaccurate, in that it's a letter not an article and whilst the difference may not be appreciated/understood by the OP it is important.
4.) Estimating 186,000 death toll in Gaza - misleading, as it implies an actual and current death toll which is neither the content or intent of the authors of the letter.

5.) First post by the OP is " estimating that the death toll in the Gaza genocide could be 186,000 people or more. That's 8% of the population, obliterated."
This figure is grossly wrong and not factual.
6.) "It's a non-peer reviewed letter which contains a future looking set of speculation. Nothing more and nothing less."

EasterIssland · 09/07/2024 11:57

Alwayslookonthe · 09/07/2024 11:54

It seems crazy that Palestinian advocates don’t want any criticism of the letter sent to the Lancet.

Someone asked Martin McKee an author of the letter for clarification.
“ MANY are citing this letter to say that 186,000 have been killed in the past 9 months. Is that an accurate reading of your work?”

Martin McKee
” No”
https://x.com/hijadevidriero_/status/1810377543834563036/photo/1

Martin McKee further clarified
“And as our piece has been greatly misquoted and misinterpreted, can we clarify that all we are saying is that the Gaza figures are credible & indirect toll will, in time, likely be much higher. The figure we give is purely illustrative.”

Anyone who wants to read point by point what is wrong with the letter’s sources and evidence.
https://x.com/Aizenberg55/status/1797648673964282104

And as our piece has been greatly misquoted and misinterpreted, can we clarify that all we are saying is that the Gaza figures are credible & indirect toll will, in time, likely be much higher. The figure we give is purely illustrative.”

  1. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. In fact the title it does says estimate and it’s for those directly killed + those indirectly killed I.e lack of hospitals or medicines. Think many of us have understood it.
  2. That sentence I’ve highlighted is good. For those that say that the figures are fake because they’re coming out from Hamas .
Dulra · 09/07/2024 11:58

DownNative · 09/07/2024 11:54

Huh?

I've read THIS thread. 🤦‍♂️

Hence, my first line of noting thread title has STILL not been altered. And, yes, I did see the OPs post on page 3.

Only they can request the title to be changed, so why have they not?

And, yes, it is Whataboutery for you to bring in an unrelated thread to this one. One I haven't read, I don't think. 🤦‍♂️

Only they can request the title to be changed, so why have they not?

Maybe they are happy with the title.

EasterIssland · 09/07/2024 11:59

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 11:55

No, the title is not misleading by just one word.

Here are some of the reasons - apologies that these include previously posted reasons:
1.) The death toll in Gaza is still officially under 40,000 - the thread title says it is quadruple that
2.) The thread title suggests it is an article but the link is to a letter
3.) The Lancet published an article - inaccurate, in that it's a letter not an article and whilst the difference may not be appreciated/understood by the OP it is important.
4.) Estimating 186,000 death toll in Gaza - misleading, as it implies an actual and current death toll which is neither the content or intent of the authors of the letter.

5.) First post by the OP is " estimating that the death toll in the Gaza genocide could be 186,000 people or more. That's 8% of the population, obliterated."
This figure is grossly wrong and not factual.
6.) "It's a non-peer reviewed letter which contains a future looking set of speculation. Nothing more and nothing less."

The death toll in Gaza is still officially under 40,000 - the thread title says it is quadruple that

where? The title “The Lancet publish article estimating 186,000 death toll in Gaza ”

keenforhelp · 09/07/2024 11:59

EasterIssland · 09/07/2024 11:57

And as our piece has been greatly misquoted and misinterpreted, can we clarify that all we are saying is that the Gaza figures are credible & indirect toll will, in time, likely be much higher. The figure we give is purely illustrative.”

  1. I don’t think anyone is disputing that. In fact the title it does says estimate and it’s for those directly killed + those indirectly killed I.e lack of hospitals or medicines. Think many of us have understood it.
  2. That sentence I’ve highlighted is good. For those that say that the figures are fake because they’re coming out from Hamas .

" In fact the title it does says estimate and it’s for those directly killed + those indirectly killed I.e lack of hospitals or medicines. Think many of us have understood it."

How can anybody get direct and indirect deaths and future deaths from the thread title "The Lancet publish article estimating 186,000 death toll in Gaza"?

I mean, come on!

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