This is the reality of Hamas

[keenforhelp]

This is a very interesting opinion piece and underlines how difficult it is and has been for Israel.

There must be more international calls for Hamas to be removed from Gaza.

https://yaledailynews.com/blog/2023/11/17/cole-the-reality-of-hamas/

I believe they support hamas in full and have no desire for peace.

Do you believe Netanyahu, Smotrich and Ben-Givr desire peace with Palestinians on a basis that does not subjugate them or take away their land?

And many Israelis support the IDFs actions in Gaza and there were Israelis celebrating and blocking humanitarian aid. What's your point? Innocent Palestinians are not Hamas

@Polarnight my point being innocent Palestinians and innocent Israelis don't deserve to be killed whether they support their governments or not

@manonwelfling
Hamas clearly has enjoyed some level of grassroots support, the extent of which is debatable, impossible to quantify precisely and has varied over time. The right to become an Israeli citizen doesn’t really seem to be a good offer if people have lost homes, land , even loved ones and are not even being offered parity of esteem for their language , religion and culture. If an Israeli passport is the best recompense for what was lost, there was always going to be deep seated unrest. Can you be more explicit about what successive proposed deals would have offered in terms of the impact on daily life?

I had friends who did not support Hamas at all. Israeli forces killed them.

@Kindatired
1/ What is your point about 'grass root support for hamas', I haven't said anything about that? Actually don't bother replying.
2/ You were talking about 1948; everything was on the table.
3/ I won't be more 'explicit' about successive - you mean subsequent?- offers, none of them were deemed acceptable in any way, so here we are.

No one said they did. This is a thread about 'The reality of Hamas' their actions and their supporters. Some Palestinians and others clearly support them, some don't. However, the most recent posts were about the rape of a man and his testimony, not the IDF, a fake story about dog rape and Palestinians. But there you go, derail derail same old same old. Some on here will derail any talk about hamas and their dreadful actions....🙄

What a total waste of space and a dick he is. May he rot. However, many f his sick followers will mourn him.

3/ I won't be more 'explicit' about successive - you mean subsequent?- offers, none of them were deemed acceptable in any way, so here we are.

Were there, from Palestinians’ point of view, reasons to see them as being unacceptable? No right of return for Palestinians? Increasing numbers of illegal settlements on Palestinian land and no real Palestinian state offered?

Trump Plan 2020

Palestinian representatives had originally not even been invited to the planned first meeting.

Feb 2020 Peace Negotiations
^The Secretary-General of the League of Arab States said the measures proposed in the United States peace plan will impact many issues that should be addressed through negotiations, adding that the measures benefit only the Israeli side.

Whereas the “blueprint” was presented as the “fruit” of negotiations, it excludes the Palestinians and seems to imply that the plan will be imposed upon them. The plan appears to have been drafted with the idea of seeing it rejected by Palestine and the world, he said, adding that it also sets new parameters — granting land, settlements and Jerusalem to Israel, while not proposing a realistic two-State solution.

Instead, it seems to propose the creation of a single State with two categories of citizens: those with and those without rights, he noted.
https://press.un.org/en/2020/sc14103.doc.htm

I just went on to look up more about the @plan for Palestinians in 2020 and don’t see how they could have accepted it. It was a Trump and Netanyahu deal for a false state basically controlled by Israel and included lot more annexation for Israel.

@Scirocco I am sorry that you have lost innocent friends in this conflict. Like many people on these threads, I have great respect and affection for you and am sometimes overwhelmed by your dignity, empathy and tolerance at what is a terrible time.

@manonwelfling No, I meant successive. Typically in deals an offer is brought to the table, considered and if it’s not a sufficiently good deal it gets rejected.A new proposal follows with a different set of compromises. In the case of Israel/Palestine the best deal seems to have been the 1948 one but it clearly wasn’t very good from the Arab point of view- like give us half your land and we’ll stop killing you???? How would any of the offers that followed improved the day to day life of Palestinians?
Why wouldn’t there be a terrorist problem if peaceful protest is suppressed and no realistic deal is offered? This is not condoning terrorism but revenge killing tens of thousands of people to teach Hamas a lesson isn’t going to eliminate terrorism.

This is the kind of thing I expect from terrorist groups and that has been a genuine fear from most quarters since 7th October 2023. 👇

I've been told that Ben-Gvir via his SM account denies this.

Still, the fear is ever present, particularly for the families of those still held hostage.

Do think he is lying though?

Everyone is so angry that the hostages have been at risk for so long, from Hamas, from the bombing, from illness, from despair. He might not want to loose face as he and Netanyahu have been stalling a ceasefire and hostage release.

It is very worrying.

Excellent points.

Men that rape. Is it about power, control?

People don't believe victims. I've seen on here (other threads) the denial of the many claims of rape of October 7th of mainly women but also men. Its a heinous crime whoever does it.

"The testimony he has given has been handed to the police unit in charge of investigating sexual crimes committed by Hamas terrorists on October 7.
Dalet said he knew that people would seek to deny his experience and as a result shared reports carried out by medical experts that testify to the harm done to him.
He said he had also taken part in a polygraph test to further prove what he went through.
His testimony is the latest that joins mounting evidence of the sexual nature of the abuse and violence experienced by October 7 victims and survivors.
Israeli Defence Forces reservist Shari Mendes said that she personally dealt with the mutilated bodies of women on October 8.
In an interview with Sky’s Yalda Hakim, five months ago, Mendes described what she and her team thought “seems like a systematic genital mutilation of women”.
She said she saw and dealt with women with very “bloodied underwear” and “women shot in the crotch, the genitals”.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-says-it-wont-attend-upcoming-last-opportunity-talks-for-hostage-truce-deal/

Rape is almost always about power, control and hatred.

There is no justification for sexual violence. Not against anyone.

No surprise there

Even PA President Abbas admitted Arab leaders were wrong to reject the 1947 UN Partition Plan.

Reject then fight ad nauseum is a terrible, terrible plan. Rejection is a tactical response to a situation they don't have a strategic ability to achieve.

I believe the leaders of Hamas love the fight. It detracts from the fact they live in luxury and do nothing for the people of Gaza. There's always someone else to blame.

*US2gether · Today 11:33
I believe the leaders of Hamas love the fight.

Haaretz:
Israel received indications that Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar is interested in a cease-fire/hostage release deal, an Israeli source told Haaretz, adding that "the question is whether Netanyahu wants it."

I meant the 'fight' generally. You know, keep the Palestinian people down, keep the aid flowing (prior to Oct 7th) so they kept their positions of power and luxury lifestyle.

I wonder if they regret 7th October or maybe they are so careless with their own people they don't. I can see why Israel wouldn't want hamas to remain in power so as to never be able to carry out a 7th October.

From The Times of Israel

Although Hamas say the killing of this female aid worker was accidental, it seems possible they are lying.

Either way, what a loss to the world of a good woman:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-gunmen-slay-female-aid-worker-in-gaza-in-volley-of-bullets/

www.timesofisrael.com/palestinian-gunmen-slay-female-aid-worker-in-gaza-in-volley-of-bullets/

Disgusting thanks for sharing. What a brave woman to stand up to terrorists and risk her life to help the people of Gaza. Aid workers need to be better protected in Gaza, their loss of life and murders is inexcusable

I wonder which innocent civilian in Gaza they thought they were murdering instead of her.

Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhi raji'un. May she be welcomed into Jannat al-Firdaus and reunited with her children there in time.