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Conflict in the Middle East

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48
keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 19:28

Kindatired · 10/06/2024 19:21

It’s great that 4 hostages have been rescued. The cost in human lives was terrible.
The IDF have killed 3 and probably 6 hostages in total and rescued 6. Negotiations led to the release of 105 last year.
So a rough calculation:
Less than one person rescued per month, 120 hostages, it will take until sometime after June 2034 before the last hostage gets released.
So while I wasn’t in the front row of the honours maths class back in the day, if one of my kids was a hostage I think I’d be marching and telling Netanyahu to do a deal.

Yes the cost in human lives was terrible.

And all Hamas' fault. They took them. They did not release them. They fired upon the IDF.

OP posts:
DownNative · 10/06/2024 19:32

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 17:06

Your point might be reasonable if hundreds of people weren't killed. But they were, so the situation isn't as clear cut as you're saying it is.

YOU specifically referred to the soldiers dressing in civilian clothing and tried making that into a "war crime"! 🤦‍♂️

Now you've found that is permissible you've resorted to changing the goalposts.

So, can you explain in your own words what you're trying to say about the deaths that occurred during hostage rescue in plain words?

Then I can address it.

Bowib · 10/06/2024 19:39

stomachamelon · 10/06/2024 18:01

@IAmAHomewardBounder more information.

That’s tragic, I hope she understood even if she couldn’t respond.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 19:40

DownNative · 10/06/2024 19:32

YOU specifically referred to the soldiers dressing in civilian clothing and tried making that into a "war crime"! 🤦‍♂️

Now you've found that is permissible you've resorted to changing the goalposts.

So, can you explain in your own words what you're trying to say about the deaths that occurred during hostage rescue in plain words?

Then I can address it.

If this was a straightforward rescue mission it may be OK under international law. But nearly 300 people were killed, presumably including Hamas militants so I believe the IDF acted in a pefidious way.

Your point is only relevant if people weren't killed or hurt. They were. Hundreds of them.

Edit: I didn't change any goalposts by the way. I just pointed out your error. It's not my fault if you don't understand international law.

LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 19:42

Here's footage of the rescue of the three men:
https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1800227576587440585

x.com

https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1800227576587440585

DownNative · 10/06/2024 19:50

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 19:40

If this was a straightforward rescue mission it may be OK under international law. But nearly 300 people were killed, presumably including Hamas militants so I believe the IDF acted in a pefidious way.

Your point is only relevant if people weren't killed or hurt. They were. Hundreds of them.

Edit: I didn't change any goalposts by the way. I just pointed out your error. It's not my fault if you don't understand international law.

Edited

Is this the extent of what you have to say on this issue?

So, you admit you "believe the IDF acted in a pefidious way". Can you elaborate on this more specifically?

General statements don't really add anything here.

Cheers!

Oh, and I do understand IHL which is why I use it. Your original argument of war crimes was reliant on the use of disguises which you thought was prohibited when it's not as I explained.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 19:53

DownNative · 10/06/2024 19:50

Is this the extent of what you have to say on this issue?

So, you admit you "believe the IDF acted in a pefidious way". Can you elaborate on this more specifically?

General statements don't really add anything here.

Cheers!

Oh, and I do understand IHL which is why I use it. Your original argument of war crimes was reliant on the use of disguises which you thought was prohibited when it's not as I explained.

No, I said the way the IDF behaved may be a war crime. I still believe this. You may have misunderstood me but I haven't changed my argument at any stage.

It comes down to intent. I don't particularly feel like debating this with you to be honest. I try to avoid your posts where possible for several reasons.

You'll say they had no intention to harm anyone, and I disagree with that. This is how it would be argued in court. It won't be resolved here.

Humdingerydoo · 10/06/2024 19:59

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 19:24

Off topic a bit, but I wonder how much longer he's even going to be PM.

Hopefully not much longer! Israelis wanted him out long before October 7th. The whole world seems to be voting in more and more right-wing politicians than ever before though, so who knows.

DownNative · 10/06/2024 20:07

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 19:53

No, I said the way the IDF behaved may be a war crime. I still believe this. You may have misunderstood me but I haven't changed my argument at any stage.

It comes down to intent. I don't particularly feel like debating this with you to be honest. I try to avoid your posts where possible for several reasons.

You'll say they had no intention to harm anyone, and I disagree with that. This is how it would be argued in court. It won't be resolved here.

Half decent attempt at reverse argument, but no dice.

So, you're not going to be specific as to what you believe was perfidious on the part of the Israel Defence Force?

You're trying to stick to pretty general statements here!

But if you would rather ignore anything I post, then knock yourself out. It ultimately makes no difference to me.

You've already ignored my asking you for evidence the humanitarian pier was used since US CENTCOM asserted they did not.

So nothing new there. 🤷‍♂️

Bowib · 10/06/2024 20:13

LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 19:42

Here's footage of the rescue of the three men:
https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1800227576587440585

Brave soldiers, the look of relief you see on Andrey Kozlov’s face when he realises what’s happening and fist bumps

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 20:19

DownNative · 10/06/2024 20:07

Half decent attempt at reverse argument, but no dice.

So, you're not going to be specific as to what you believe was perfidious on the part of the Israel Defence Force?

You're trying to stick to pretty general statements here!

But if you would rather ignore anything I post, then knock yourself out. It ultimately makes no difference to me.

You've already ignored my asking you for evidence the humanitarian pier was used since US CENTCOM asserted they did not.

So nothing new there. 🤷‍♂️

How much more clear can I be?

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 20:21

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 20:19

How much more clear can I be?

Edited

Also, you refused to explain to me how it's legal or acceptable to kill civilians that are being used as human shields so no need to act as thought you don't avoid questions you don't like.

The difference is that I don't hound you about it.

@DownNative

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 20:31

LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 19:42

Here's footage of the rescue of the three men:
https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1800227576587440585

Such brave soldiers.

DownNative · 10/06/2024 20:31

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 20:21

Also, you refused to explain to me how it's legal or acceptable to kill civilians that are being used as human shields so no need to act as thought you don't avoid questions you don't like.

The difference is that I don't hound you about it.

@DownNative

Edited

I think you'll find I haven't done that. Indeed, I have made the point more than once that it is prohibited for Hamas to try making an area immune to military attack by the presence of protected status, i.e., civilians.

IHL doesn't prohibit that because if they did then well armed terrorist groups such as Hamas will absolutely have the advantage over the legitimate military forces of every Sovereign Power.

That's not how it works.

The issues I opt to address are pretty complex ones which require a lot of thought and time before replying whereas the humanitarian pier source you're relying on is a far more simpler one which doesn't require very much time or thought to reply to.

But you're relying on hearsay which was then reported by some media outlets with the main one being Al Jazeera. 🤷‍♂️

So, the issue we were discussing about the hostage rescue mission and your belief a war crime occurred will be addressed at some point. 👍

LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 20:31

"Hostages were beaten, abused ‘almost every day,’ says doctor who treated rescuees"

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hostages-were-beaten-abused-almost-every-day-says-doctor-who-treated-rescuees/

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 20:49

LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 19:42

Here's footage of the rescue of the three men:
https://x.com/i24NEWS_EN/status/1800227576587440585

Heart in my mouth watching that

Brave soldiers on a suicide mission. The hostages relief was heartbreaking

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 20:50

DownNative · 10/06/2024 20:31

I think you'll find I haven't done that. Indeed, I have made the point more than once that it is prohibited for Hamas to try making an area immune to military attack by the presence of protected status, i.e., civilians.

IHL doesn't prohibit that because if they did then well armed terrorist groups such as Hamas will absolutely have the advantage over the legitimate military forces of every Sovereign Power.

That's not how it works.

The issues I opt to address are pretty complex ones which require a lot of thought and time before replying whereas the humanitarian pier source you're relying on is a far more simpler one which doesn't require very much time or thought to reply to.

But you're relying on hearsay which was then reported by some media outlets with the main one being Al Jazeera. 🤷‍♂️

So, the issue we were discussing about the hostage rescue mission and your belief a war crime occurred will be addressed at some point. 👍

You did refuse to answer the human shield question. Not sure why you're denying that.

It's mumsnet, a parenting chat forum, so I don't think there's any need to put so much time into posts about a one line comment I made. I've given my opinion and explained it several times and I'm not getting dragged into whatever time consuming nonsense this is.

Re the pier, they were early reports which I never said were verified. I gave an opinion based on early reports. If they were incorrect then I accept that. The main issue for me is the bombing of the refugee camp which killed hundreds of people. The pier is not a major part of the story.

Alwayslookonthe · 10/06/2024 20:50

Bowib · 10/06/2024 20:13

Brave soldiers, the look of relief you see on Andrey Kozlov’s face when he realises what’s happening and fist bumps

I missed the fist pump, thanks for pointing it out.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 20:58

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 19:53

No, I said the way the IDF behaved may be a war crime. I still believe this. You may have misunderstood me but I haven't changed my argument at any stage.

It comes down to intent. I don't particularly feel like debating this with you to be honest. I try to avoid your posts where possible for several reasons.

You'll say they had no intention to harm anyone, and I disagree with that. This is how it would be argued in court. It won't be resolved here.

There is NO WAY that the IDF committed a war crime in recovering these hostages, so disgustingly held and one kept away from her poor mum.

As far as I am concerned, if you take hostages, you don't get to decide how they are recovered. That is the choice of the recovering party and in this case, the IDF did an incredible job in nigh impossible circumstances. If you don't like it, then don't take them and keep them in a civilian residential area.

Them's the rules.

OP posts:
DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 21:02

Alwayslookonthe · 10/06/2024 18:06

I know this is not about the four hostages but it is the recovery of one.

Maya Regev, a former hostage, has been discharged from the hospital following 7 months of extensive rehabilitation.

Maya endured severe injuries after being shot by Hamas terrorists during the Nova festival. (see thread below)

While in Gaza, surgeons reattached her foot, but it was positioned sideways and at an unnatural angle.

Upon returning to Israel, she underwent corrective surgery.

https://x.com/OGAride/status/1800203562833838122

Thanks for sharing this good news!

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/artc-former-hostage-mia-regev-released-from-hospital-after-long-recovery

Former hostage Mia Regev released from hospital after long recovery - I24NEWS

Regev was released from Gaza in November, having been held captive by Hamas terrorists since October 7

https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel/society/artc-former-hostage-mia-regev-released-from-hospital-after-long-recovery

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 21:05

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 20:58

There is NO WAY that the IDF committed a war crime in recovering these hostages, so disgustingly held and one kept away from her poor mum.

As far as I am concerned, if you take hostages, you don't get to decide how they are recovered. That is the choice of the recovering party and in this case, the IDF did an incredible job in nigh impossible circumstances. If you don't like it, then don't take them and keep them in a civilian residential area.

Them's the rules.

I don't think "as far as I am concerned" would hold water in court.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 21:15

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 21:05

I don't think "as far as I am concerned" would hold water in court.

No it wouldn't.

It's my opinion.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 10/06/2024 21:16

'Ah but did Israel commit a war crime when it conducted a covert operation to rescue hostages captured by terrorists' suggests that it's time to log off from the internet tbh.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 21:34

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 21:15

No it wouldn't.

It's my opinion.

Oh, so "them's the rules" in your head. Fair enough. I thought you were adding to discussion, my mistake.

@noblegiraffe pretending to be refugees to civilians and killing hundreds of civilians potentially relevant points here.

Humdingerydoo · 10/06/2024 21:43

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