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Conflict in the Middle East

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Pav123 · 10/06/2024 16:57

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Scirocco · 10/06/2024 17:03

anotherlevel · 10/06/2024 16:54

Are you saying being pro Islam is inconsistent and contradictory?

So... if someone has respect for other people's faith and sexuality and views on certain types of work... that's a bad thing, now...?

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 17:06

DownNative · 10/06/2024 16:30

You're responding to the following as posted by @LordPercyPercy:

"Some more information about the rescue, unverified though:

"Per Saudi news, some of the special forces that entered Nuseirat posed as displaced Gazans from Rafah.

The disguised forces arrived in a white car carrying mattresses on top, and the women were dressed in local attire.

Locals asked where they came from and they answered that they were escaping the IDF operation in Rafah, and had rented a place in the area around the market in Nuseirat, pointing at the building where Noa Argamani was being held.

The unit then split into two groups, each heading towards one of the two buildings, in preparation for the operation.""

You're saying this constitutes a...war crime?

What does IHL say?

"Article 37 - Prohibition of perfidy

1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy."

What was shared by LordPercyPercy actually very clear that the disguising of Israel Defence Forces operatives was done for the perfectly legitimate reasons of:

  • entering Nuseirat undetected
  • moving inside Nuseirat undetected
  • ensuring their cover wasn't blown in Nuseirat before they reached the targeted location

It also makes it clear the IDF operatives went towards one of the buildings to begin preparing for Operation Summer Seeds.

None of that is close to a war crime.

In fact, that's called a ruse of war.

What does IHL say about that?

"Ruses of war are not prohibited. Such ruses are acts which are intended to mislead an adversary or to induce him to act recklessly but which infringe no rule of international law applicable in armed conflict and which are not perfidious because they do not invite the confidence of an adversary with respect to protection under that law. The following are examples of such ruses: the use of camouflage, decoys, mock operations and misinformation."

It is perfectly legal for soldiers to camouflage themselves in an urban area and using deception to get close to the target.

Dressing as civilians WOULD be war crime if the IDF had resorted to disguise for the PURPOSE of killing, injuring, or capturing an enemy.

But the PURPOSE here the INTENT was NOT to KILL, CAPTURE or INJURE the enemy.

The purpose AND intent was to RESCUE kidnapped hostages held prisoner in homes in Gaza.

When the rescue operation started, the Israel Defence Force operatives would have no longer appeared to be civilians to anyone since their weapons would have been very visibly out in the open!

The same logic also applies to undercover police officers operating amongst civilians and using deception to get close enough to various types of criminals.

Anyway, soldiers CAN disguise themselves in civilian clothing and drive civilian vehicles in order to remain undetected until they were ready to begin their operation.

As Kevin Jon Heller, Professor of Criminal Law at SOAS University of London and an Academic Member of Doughty Street Chambers, asserted on the very issue we're talking about:

"...the entire point of camouflage is to make the enemy believe it is surrounded only by civilian objects...."

That was the case in Nuseirat.

Cover was only blown when the IDF operatives were trying rescue the three male hostages. At that point, they came under heavy fire, aerial attacks became necessary due to the use of RPGs & machine guns by Hamas and a fire corridor by the IDF battalions was necessary in order to get the hostages away to safety.

Edited

Your point might be reasonable if hundreds of people weren't killed. But they were, so the situation isn't as clear cut as you're saying it is.

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 17:15

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/rescued-hostages-suffering-from-malnutrition-possibly-stockholm-syndrome/amp/

'She (Noa) said she had been held in four different apartments during her eight months in captivity'

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 17:25

It is SO difficult posting on this celebratory thread.

Why can't this thread be allowed to focus on the saving of these hostages rather than constant derailment and swinging back to other issues which are being covered on the myriad other threads. I despair, I really do.

There seems to be a concerted effort to derail.

OP posts:
mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 17:27

@O2AreAShowerofShite - I think you are the first Israeli supporter that I have seen here, calling for a ceasefire - I know they exist in real life.

@DownNative - your not going to convince me quoting some Israeli think tank. Your only preaching to the converted.

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 17:36

@keenforhelp - it is wonderful that hostages are back home with their families. Discussing the deaths of Palestinians that happened during that same operation and the resulting international outrage is not a derailment.

even though this thread has taken an odd direction for other reasons.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 17:37

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 17:36

@keenforhelp - it is wonderful that hostages are back home with their families. Discussing the deaths of Palestinians that happened during that same operation and the resulting international outrage is not a derailment.

even though this thread has taken an odd direction for other reasons.

Respectfully, I disagree as there is another thread for that as you very well know.

OP posts:
ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 17:39

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 17:37

Respectfully, I disagree as there is another thread for that as you very well know.

I had to start that thread because mentions of the dead Palestinians weren't welcome here.

Dulra · 10/06/2024 17:41

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 17:25

It is SO difficult posting on this celebratory thread.

Why can't this thread be allowed to focus on the saving of these hostages rather than constant derailment and swinging back to other issues which are being covered on the myriad other threads. I despair, I really do.

There seems to be a concerted effort to derail.

Probably because the rescue was a controversial one and many disagree with how the operation was carried out.There is a thread dedicated to the hostages and as far as I am aware it has never been derailed and people respect it as a space for people to talk about the hostages and the pain they and their families are going through.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 17:45

Dulra · 10/06/2024 17:41

Probably because the rescue was a controversial one and many disagree with how the operation was carried out.There is a thread dedicated to the hostages and as far as I am aware it has never been derailed and people respect it as a space for people to talk about the hostages and the pain they and their families are going through.

This does not make the derailments OK as you very well know. The thread that @ConnieCounter alludes to contains pretty much the same points that are being posted on a celebratory thread.

Yes - there IS a general hostage thread. But this is a specific thread about a specific hostage rescue - the first hostage rescue as well.

Why can't it be left alone and perhaps post on the other thread about the other issues you have mentioned?

OP posts:
IAmAHomewardBounder · 10/06/2024 17:49

I'm glad they got rescued, such a shame Almog's dad died, not realising his boy was alive and soon to be brought home.

I really hope Noa's mum understands her daughter is back and by her side before she passes.

War is brutal.

Dulra · 10/06/2024 17:54

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 17:45

This does not make the derailments OK as you very well know. The thread that @ConnieCounter alludes to contains pretty much the same points that are being posted on a celebratory thread.

Yes - there IS a general hostage thread. But this is a specific thread about a specific hostage rescue - the first hostage rescue as well.

Why can't it be left alone and perhaps post on the other thread about the other issues you have mentioned?

Edited

The thread that @ConnieCounter alludes to contains pretty much the same points that are being posted on a celebratory thread.
And you came on to that thread criticising it being there and the article it was based on.

Why can't it be left alone and perhaps post on the other thread about the other issues you have mentioned?
Because more than just the hostage rescue is being discussed here and people have a right to respond to posts that they take issue with especially when they view some posts as Islamophobic and homophobic. They are the main derailers

stomachamelon · 10/06/2024 17:59

@Dulra that's not too though. There was an attempt to derail straight away.

stomachamelon · 10/06/2024 17:59

Sorry *true

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 18:00

The thing is some posters haven’t used this to celebrate the return of these four hostages, they have used it to try and justify the current strategy being used by Israel and the ongoing onslaught of Palestinians.

And, while I think it would be unfair to ask the hostages family and friends to immediately recognise the price that other people have paid for their freedom, it should be easy for outsiders to see this event in it’s entirety. What does it cost to add a footnote about the suffering of innocent bystanders who lost their lives or were injured. And let’s not forget that Israel also lost somebody in this operation.

I do apologise for my part in veering from the thread title and understand the frustration. It is difficult when people want to gloss over the reality of what happened and have no space in their hearts to recognise the suffering of people they don’t identify with.

stomachamelon · 10/06/2024 18:01

@IAmAHomewardBounder more information.

Israel rescues four hostages alive from Gaza who were captured by Hamas at Nova music festival on October 7 - including girl seen kidnapped on back of motorbike
Alwayslookonthe · 10/06/2024 18:06

I know this is not about the four hostages but it is the recovery of one.

Maya Regev, a former hostage, has been discharged from the hospital following 7 months of extensive rehabilitation.

Maya endured severe injuries after being shot by Hamas terrorists during the Nova festival. (see thread below)

While in Gaza, surgeons reattached her foot, but it was positioned sideways and at an unnatural angle.

Upon returning to Israel, she underwent corrective surgery.

https://x.com/OGAride/status/1800203562833838122

x.com

https://x.com/OGAride/status/1800203562833838122

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 18:15

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 18:00

The thing is some posters haven’t used this to celebrate the return of these four hostages, they have used it to try and justify the current strategy being used by Israel and the ongoing onslaught of Palestinians.

And, while I think it would be unfair to ask the hostages family and friends to immediately recognise the price that other people have paid for their freedom, it should be easy for outsiders to see this event in it’s entirety. What does it cost to add a footnote about the suffering of innocent bystanders who lost their lives or were injured. And let’s not forget that Israel also lost somebody in this operation.

I do apologise for my part in veering from the thread title and understand the frustration. It is difficult when people want to gloss over the reality of what happened and have no space in their hearts to recognise the suffering of people they don’t identify with.

The problem is that we had a number of posts blaming the IDF for those casualties, without also acknowledging that Hamas' failed attempts to prevent the rescue put civilians at even more risk and led to more deaths than would've happened otherwise. Those people paid the price for Hamas trying to retain their civilian hostages.

I personally would be fine with posts that proactively acknowledged both of these things, particularly if the balance were volunteered rather than having to be extracted.

Great news about Maya Regev!

Humdingerydoo · 10/06/2024 18:31

"more hostages have been released by negotiations than by rescue missions" - does no one else remember Hamas deciding they didn't have any more hostages they were willing to release and therefore the war resumed? Clearly Hamas knew were these 4 hostages were all along. Noa should have been released in November as she's not a soldier. Yet they kept her because they'd supposedly run out of hostages to release? The 3 rescued men were not going to be released for a long, long time to come through negotiations. The release of men wasn't even being discussed, just planned for a later date.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 18:34

Humdingerydoo · 10/06/2024 18:31

"more hostages have been released by negotiations than by rescue missions" - does no one else remember Hamas deciding they didn't have any more hostages they were willing to release and therefore the war resumed? Clearly Hamas knew were these 4 hostages were all along. Noa should have been released in November as she's not a soldier. Yet they kept her because they'd supposedly run out of hostages to release? The 3 rescued men were not going to be released for a long, long time to come through negotiations. The release of men wasn't even being discussed, just planned for a later date.

Can you provide a source for that? I remember the reason being different.

Though Israel broke the ceasefire on the first day, but both sides seem to have broken it at various stages.

Humdingerydoo · 10/06/2024 18:42

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 18:34

Can you provide a source for that? I remember the reason being different.

Though Israel broke the ceasefire on the first day, but both sides seem to have broken it at various stages.

Maybe try googling it if you genuinely can't remember it. Might do you good to refresh your memory of what actually happened back then.

Hamas also released Russian hostages as extras, then the following day said "actually, those hostages we released yesterday will count towards today's hostages because otherwise we don't have enough hostages for today". This was despite Noa having been held hostage with other women who were released, so they 100% knew exactly where she was. They just chose to not release her.

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 18:55

This article discusses the claims made by both sides at the time the truce broke down.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-negotiators-try-get-israel-hamas-agree-extend-truce-again-2023-12-01/

It states:

Israel accused Hamas of refusing to release all the women it held. A Palestinian official said the breakdown occurred over female Israeli soldiers.

We don't know whether the Palestinian official was telling the truth there. We obviously do know that Noa was still alive and in captivity then. As a woman civilian, unlike the other three she would've met the agreed criteria to be released. Which makes me wonder if she was retained because of her higher profile.

Kindatired · 10/06/2024 19:21

It’s great that 4 hostages have been rescued. The cost in human lives was terrible.
The IDF have killed 3 and probably 6 hostages in total and rescued 6. Negotiations led to the release of 105 last year.
So a rough calculation:
Less than one person rescued per month, 120 hostages, it will take until sometime after June 2034 before the last hostage gets released.
So while I wasn’t in the front row of the honours maths class back in the day, if one of my kids was a hostage I think I’d be marching and telling Netanyahu to do a deal.

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 19:24

Off topic a bit, but I wonder how much longer he's even going to be PM.

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