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Conflict in the Middle East

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48
DownNative · 10/06/2024 21:44

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 20:50

You did refuse to answer the human shield question. Not sure why you're denying that.

It's mumsnet, a parenting chat forum, so I don't think there's any need to put so much time into posts about a one line comment I made. I've given my opinion and explained it several times and I'm not getting dragged into whatever time consuming nonsense this is.

Re the pier, they were early reports which I never said were verified. I gave an opinion based on early reports. If they were incorrect then I accept that. The main issue for me is the bombing of the refugee camp which killed hundreds of people. The pier is not a major part of the story.

Dog Gif GIF

No, I've specifically made it clear that IHL states that Hamas cannot render areas immune to military operations by the presence of protected status individuals.

Meaning civilians, including human shields.

If military targets in an urban environment cannot be attacked due to the presence of civilians, then terrorist groups such as Hamas would absolutely have a very major upper hand against Sovereign States!

The implication of your attempted argument would give every advantage to Hamas and tie the hands of the Sovereign State of Israel as well as other States globally.

That would be absurd! It's not practical and would also incentivise terrorist groups to put civilians very, very deliberately in harms way.

Such an understanding cannot be compliant with International Law as it stands on this issue. That kind of understanding would also be at odds with the prohibition on hostage taking.

That kind of flawed understanding would also be to argue in favour of Hamas' own war aims, knowingly or unknowingly.

Not going to fly either.

You say, "It's mumsnet, a parenting chat forum, so I don't think there's any need to put so much time into posts about a one line comment I made".

Sure, this is Mumsnet. But you appear to have missed the name of the section you're in - Conflict In The Middle East.

You may not think much time needs to be put into posts, but I think that's irresponsible. It is necessary to take significant amounts of time to seriously think about very serious, difficult and complex issues that arise during active wars and conflicts.

You've alleged war crimes were committed during Operation Summer Seeds aka Arnon, so it becomes important to drill right down into the details of what exactly you believe.

So, your dismissive attempt of "it's Mumsnet, a parenting forum" falls flat on its face.

"Re the pier, they were early reports which I never said were verified. I gave an opinion based on early reports. If they were incorrect then I accept that. The main issue for me is the bombing of the refugee camp which killed hundreds of people. The pier is not a major part of the story."

And the lesson here is don't take unverified, early reports at face value. And I think you should ask yourself why do you run with these kinds of reports.

It's not an isolated incident with you, but a clear, persistent pattern. 🤔

Humdingerydoo · 10/06/2024 21:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 21:46

I can’t find the reference right now but I’m pretty sure Ben Saul, Special Rapporteur on counter-terrorism and human rights, said that if it was known that there would be so many civilians deaths and they went ahead with the operation it may constitute a war crime.

Whether or not it constitutes a war crime I hope everyone can agree it was a very bad day for those who lost their lives because they happened to be close by.

@SocoBateVira I believe that Hamas are also definitely responsible for the civilian deaths. Neither seems to place much value on the lives or regular people, only when it suits their own advancement and political agendas.

@Humdingerydoo it is scary to see more right wing politicians gain influence. I really fear for where we are headed.

Happy to see Maya is making progress in her recovery. It’s the stuff of nightmares. I’m sure she has a lot to process. Are the recovered hostages being provided with much support?

Scirocco · 10/06/2024 21:49

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 21:34

Oh, so "them's the rules" in your head. Fair enough. I thought you were adding to discussion, my mistake.

@noblegiraffe pretending to be refugees to civilians and killing hundreds of civilians potentially relevant points here.

Some people don't care about Palestinian civilians, as we've seen time and again. Neither Hamas nor the IDF cared enough to mitigate casualties, and the rest of the world kind of goes "meh" and ignores what happened.

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 21:50

Wow the level of discussion on this post went dramatically down hill while I was typing.

noblegiraffe · 10/06/2024 21:54

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 21:34

Oh, so "them's the rules" in your head. Fair enough. I thought you were adding to discussion, my mistake.

@noblegiraffe pretending to be refugees to civilians and killing hundreds of civilians potentially relevant points here.

They did not pretend to be refugees in order to kill hundreds of civilians.

They pretended to be civilians in order to rescue hostages kidnapped by terrorists.

Which I think is the important distinction, if we are discussing the matter of them using a disguise.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 21:56

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 21:34

Oh, so "them's the rules" in your head. Fair enough. I thought you were adding to discussion, my mistake.

@noblegiraffe pretending to be refugees to civilians and killing hundreds of civilians potentially relevant points here.

@ConnieCounter I am adding to the discussion. It's my opinion. And my opinion is adding to the discussion. Who are you, the thread police?

OP posts:
DownNative · 10/06/2024 21:57

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 21:34

Oh, so "them's the rules" in your head. Fair enough. I thought you were adding to discussion, my mistake.

@noblegiraffe pretending to be refugees to civilians and killing hundreds of civilians potentially relevant points here.

"pretending to be refugees to civilians...."

Not prohibited, especially not under the circumstances you initially responded to in regards to what LordPercyPercy posted.

It's a valid ruse of war.

"...killing hundreds of civilians..."

Not necessarily as the Israel Defence Force operatives came under very heavy fire from Hamas and civilians engaging in hostilities. RPGs and machine guns was amongst the kind of weapons being fired at the IDF once cover was blown.

How many of those killed during the extraction phase of the mission were:

  • Hamas terrorists
  • civilians engaged in hostilities
  • uninvolved civilians
keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 21:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Never a truer post was ever posted, @Humdingerydoo .
I agree with you 100 %. There, that's my contribution to that discussion.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 10/06/2024 21:58

How many of them were killed by Hamas? If Hamas were using machine guns and RPGs it would be astonishing if the only person they killed was an Israeli soldier.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 22:01

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

You're being very aggressive and inflammatory in your accusations.

The quote you're referring to was a headline in a mainstream media report thar came from a Doctors Without Borders paediatric intensive care doctor who said "this is what a massacre looks like".

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 22:04

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 21:50

Wow the level of discussion on this post went dramatically down hill while I was typing.

Rude.

OP posts:
ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 22:07

DownNative · 10/06/2024 21:44

No, I've specifically made it clear that IHL states that Hamas cannot render areas immune to military operations by the presence of protected status individuals.

Meaning civilians, including human shields.

If military targets in an urban environment cannot be attacked due to the presence of civilians, then terrorist groups such as Hamas would absolutely have a very major upper hand against Sovereign States!

The implication of your attempted argument would give every advantage to Hamas and tie the hands of the Sovereign State of Israel as well as other States globally.

That would be absurd! It's not practical and would also incentivise terrorist groups to put civilians very, very deliberately in harms way.

Such an understanding cannot be compliant with International Law as it stands on this issue. That kind of understanding would also be at odds with the prohibition on hostage taking.

That kind of flawed understanding would also be to argue in favour of Hamas' own war aims, knowingly or unknowingly.

Not going to fly either.

You say, "It's mumsnet, a parenting chat forum, so I don't think there's any need to put so much time into posts about a one line comment I made".

Sure, this is Mumsnet. But you appear to have missed the name of the section you're in - Conflict In The Middle East.

You may not think much time needs to be put into posts, but I think that's irresponsible. It is necessary to take significant amounts of time to seriously think about very serious, difficult and complex issues that arise during active wars and conflicts.

You've alleged war crimes were committed during Operation Summer Seeds aka Arnon, so it becomes important to drill right down into the details of what exactly you believe.

So, your dismissive attempt of "it's Mumsnet, a parenting forum" falls flat on its face.

"Re the pier, they were early reports which I never said were verified. I gave an opinion based on early reports. If they were incorrect then I accept that. The main issue for me is the bombing of the refugee camp which killed hundreds of people. The pier is not a major part of the story."

And the lesson here is don't take unverified, early reports at face value. And I think you should ask yourself why do you run with these kinds of reports.

It's not an isolated incident with you, but a clear, persistent pattern. 🤔

I didn't post saying that the pier thing was true. I commented on someone else posting it saying that it was fucked up. Feel free to report my comment if it upsets you so much.

A human shield can never ever be a legitimate target. That you appear to be arguing this is extremely disturbing and shows that you have no genuine knowledge of or interest in humanitarian law other than to excuse war crimes of countries you support.

I can't believe you're arguing this.

@noblegiraffe explain to me where bombing the civilians in the refugee camp came into it? How is that legitimate?

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 22:08

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 21:50

Wow the level of discussion on this post went dramatically down hill while I was typing.

Which conicided with the arrival of any particular posters?

Such a shame. The celebration of the release of these poor innocent hostages has gone the way of every other thread.

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 22:15

I really don’t think there is anything that can be said to convince some people that the operation is or isn’t a war crime. I don’t think this is going anywhere. Whatever information will be released by Hamas or the Israeli government can’t be trusted. I don’t think we will have a good idea of what really happened for a long time, and even then there will be many disagreements between actual experts.

All I know is that some people who shouldn’t have been taken there in the first place got rescued and that even more people who happened to be in the area lost their lives. This to me is a celebration for the people rescued and a tragedy for those that won’t go home again. I acknowledge this situation in its entirety, including the toll it will have taken on those on either side who believed their violent actions were justified in pursuit of bigger goals. I believe there will be many consequences for many people.

DownNative · 10/06/2024 22:27

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 22:07

I didn't post saying that the pier thing was true. I commented on someone else posting it saying that it was fucked up. Feel free to report my comment if it upsets you so much.

A human shield can never ever be a legitimate target. That you appear to be arguing this is extremely disturbing and shows that you have no genuine knowledge of or interest in humanitarian law other than to excuse war crimes of countries you support.

I can't believe you're arguing this.

@noblegiraffe explain to me where bombing the civilians in the refugee camp came into it? How is that legitimate?

Your "argument" regarding what IHL states and the reality of conducting a hostage rescue operation in an area filled with enemy combatants is to make emotionally based arguments?

You should understand the difference between law and morality on this issue since they're not the same things. Indeed, you're arguing a war crime was committed which should be based on law in the first instance.

Instead of doing that, you're basing it on morality which isn't practical for looking at this kind of situation. That's really what you're doing since you've no supporting evidence from law you can cite.

In referencing IHL, there's nothing at all "extremely disturbing" in what I'm saying with respect to what IHL says.

Indeed, the best way to avoid this kind of situation in the first place is for Hamas to not have taken people hostage.

"Article 1, paragraph 1, the offence of hostage-taking is committed by:

Any person who seizes or detains and threatens to kill, to injure or to continue to detain another person (hereinafter referred to as the “hostage”) in order to compel a third party, namely, a State, an international intergovernmental organization, a natural or juridical person, or a group of persons, to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the hostage."

Let's recall Hamas actively attempted to murder three of four hostages as the Israel Defense Forces operatives was extracting them to safety.

Nor is it valid or legitimate to abduct people to coerce a State to do whatever a terrorist group wants in exchange for release.

The IDF operatives came under fire as they rescued three of the four hostages, so they are entitled to return fire.

Hostage rescue missions are valid, legal and legitimate.

velveteens · 10/06/2024 22:28

This is genocide. Israel is committing a war crime. Why is this even up for discussion?!

40,000 Palestinians are dead. Women, children, it's a bloodbath.

How can anyone defend this?!

LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 22:28

explain to me where bombing the civilians in the refugee camp came into it? How is that legitimate?

Isn't the entire area the operation was carried out in designated a refugee camp?

Humdingerydoo · 10/06/2024 22:29

This reply has been deleted

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Weemammy21 · 10/06/2024 22:36

What about the 274 civilians murdered by Israel in the process?

Weemammy21 · 10/06/2024 22:38

@DownNative Innocent women and children are not enemy combatants. Nor are their lives less worthy and deserving of respect than anyone else.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 22:41

DownNative · 10/06/2024 22:27

Your "argument" regarding what IHL states and the reality of conducting a hostage rescue operation in an area filled with enemy combatants is to make emotionally based arguments?

You should understand the difference between law and morality on this issue since they're not the same things. Indeed, you're arguing a war crime was committed which should be based on law in the first instance.

Instead of doing that, you're basing it on morality which isn't practical for looking at this kind of situation. That's really what you're doing since you've no supporting evidence from law you can cite.

In referencing IHL, there's nothing at all "extremely disturbing" in what I'm saying with respect to what IHL says.

Indeed, the best way to avoid this kind of situation in the first place is for Hamas to not have taken people hostage.

"Article 1, paragraph 1, the offence of hostage-taking is committed by:

Any person who seizes or detains and threatens to kill, to injure or to continue to detain another person (hereinafter referred to as the “hostage”) in order to compel a third party, namely, a State, an international intergovernmental organization, a natural or juridical person, or a group of persons, to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the hostage."

Let's recall Hamas actively attempted to murder three of four hostages as the Israel Defense Forces operatives was extracting them to safety.

Nor is it valid or legitimate to abduct people to coerce a State to do whatever a terrorist group wants in exchange for release.

The IDF operatives came under fire as they rescued three of the four hostages, so they are entitled to return fire.

Hostage rescue missions are valid, legal and legitimate.

Edited

Killing human shields is never permitted under international law. That's not being emotional, that's the law.

DownNative · 10/06/2024 22:43

Weemammy21 · 10/06/2024 22:38

@DownNative Innocent women and children are not enemy combatants. Nor are their lives less worthy and deserving of respect than anyone else.

I think you'll find I didn't say anything close to that! 🤦‍♂️

Read more carefully and you'll find I also referred to three categories:

Hamas terrorists

Civilians engaged in hostilities

Uninvolved Civilians

At the same time, Hamas cannot render areas immune from military operations by using people as human shields.

If that was the case, then Israel and every other State would never be able to make a move in dealing with hostile terrorist groups using human shields.

noblegiraffe · 10/06/2024 22:45

explain to me where bombing the civilians in the refugee camp came into it? How is that legitimate?

@ConnieCounter the specific assertion was that it was a war crime to dress as refugees when approaching an area where hostages were being held by terrorists, presumably to avoid those hostages being immediately murdered by Hamas.

And like I said, if you're looking at this and trying to argue that was a war crime to wear a disguise to rescue hostages, or a war crime because they used a humanitarian aid pier (they didn't), or rocked up in an aid truck (apparently not), it's probably time to log off.

Bowib · 10/06/2024 22:45

another beautiful video, almog cutting off his friends bracelets that they’ve had on since his kidnapping.
https://x.com/neriakraus/status/1800239743424205073?s=46

x.com

https://x.com/neriakraus/status/1800239743424205073?s=46

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