Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Conflict in the Middle East

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

OP posts:
Thread gallery
48
DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 15:01

Why do Iranian dissidents get beaten at 'pro-Palestine' marches for signs saying that Hamas are terrorists?

Why do 'innocent civilians' in Gaza hide hostages?

Why do polls show there is majority support for Hamas in Gaza?

Why can't people talk about the war without resorting to Jew hatred that gets them deleted & banned across these boards?

Why are people more concerned with dismantling Israel than helping the people in Gaza by getting rid of Hamas?

Why are people who are LGBT+ killed in Gaza?

Why have nearly all Jews been expelled from Muslim majority countries throughout Africa & the ME?

quantumbutterfly · 10/06/2024 15:01

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-6705301 Israel gives an official figure of 120 hostages being held in Gaza because it includes four people taken hostage in 2014 and 2015. Two of these are believed to have died.

Maxim Kharkin

Hamas hostages: Stories of the people taken from Israel

It is thought 116 Israelis and foreigners remain unaccounted for after the 7 October attacks.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67053011

EdithStourton · 10/06/2024 15:02

stormy4319trevor · 10/06/2024 14:59

@EdithStourton So why has it been said that gay people who support Palestine need educating? That is really quite offensive.

Perhaps to ensure that they 100% understand what Hamas is all about before they believe anything it says?

But maybe ask the poster to clarify. I've already been told off on this thread for making assumptions.

stormy4319trevor · 10/06/2024 15:02

Northernnature · 10/06/2024 13:42

Yes the willingness of people especially young people to not do any critical thinking or research has me shocked. I think the gays for palestine etc. need educating but who will do it?

This is the post I refer to @EdithStourton Perhaps the poster could explain themselves.

stormy4319trevor · 10/06/2024 15:04

Do you think gay people are stupid? Are you suggesting they will blindly believe what Hamas says unless they are educated? Why would you say this about gay people? @EdithStourton

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 15:10

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 15:01

Why do Iranian dissidents get beaten at 'pro-Palestine' marches for signs saying that Hamas are terrorists?

Why do 'innocent civilians' in Gaza hide hostages?

Why do polls show there is majority support for Hamas in Gaza?

Why can't people talk about the war without resorting to Jew hatred that gets them deleted & banned across these boards?

Why are people more concerned with dismantling Israel than helping the people in Gaza by getting rid of Hamas?

Why are people who are LGBT+ killed in Gaza?

Why have nearly all Jews been expelled from Muslim majority countries throughout Africa & the ME?

@stormy4319trevor

Care to answer any of these questions?

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 15:12

O2AreAShowerofShite · 10/06/2024 14:46

Would you leave the hostages with their captors hoping that Hamas would engage in meaningful good-faith diplomatic negotiations indefinitely?

I don’t think it is realistic that the hostages will be saved through rescue operations. I think a diplomatic solution is more realistic and will save lives. Negotiations have brought home over 100 hostages. How many have they saved now?

I think the hostages prioritised for saving to reduce the pressure on Netanyahu (internal pressure) to agree a ceasefire.

O2AreAShowerofShite · 10/06/2024 15:14

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 15:12

I don’t think it is realistic that the hostages will be saved through rescue operations. I think a diplomatic solution is more realistic and will save lives. Negotiations have brought home over 100 hostages. How many have they saved now?

I think the hostages prioritised for saving to reduce the pressure on Netanyahu (internal pressure) to agree a ceasefire.

Edited

I don’t think it is realistic that the hostages will be saved through rescue operations

Well, the four saved in recent days were saved, weren't they?

I think the hostages prioritised for saving to reduce the pressure on Netanyahu (internal pressure) to agree a ceasefire.

To my mind, framing things in this way is quite a contortion and speaks to a particular bias, rather than an objective one.

If you had a close relative who was held hostage - let's say a young woman, a sister or best friend - what would you want your government to do?

stormy4319trevor · 10/06/2024 15:17

@DuskyBlueDepartingLight Thank you, I've seen a squirrel before

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 15:19

O2AreAShowerofShite · 10/06/2024 15:14

I don’t think it is realistic that the hostages will be saved through rescue operations

Well, the four saved in recent days were saved, weren't they?

I think the hostages prioritised for saving to reduce the pressure on Netanyahu (internal pressure) to agree a ceasefire.

To my mind, framing things in this way is quite a contortion and speaks to a particular bias, rather than an objective one.

If you had a close relative who was held hostage - let's say a young woman, a sister or best friend - what would you want your government to do?

@DuskyBlueDepartingLight it would take an essay to answer your questions. What is your point?

I’ve been in and out of here talking about the war for months now. I’ve been criticising the Israeli government actions in the occupied territories for years and I don’t hate anyone for who they are or what religion they are.

SpottedLeopards · 10/06/2024 15:24

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 15:28

O2AreAShowerofShite · 10/06/2024 15:14

I don’t think it is realistic that the hostages will be saved through rescue operations

Well, the four saved in recent days were saved, weren't they?

I think the hostages prioritised for saving to reduce the pressure on Netanyahu (internal pressure) to agree a ceasefire.

To my mind, framing things in this way is quite a contortion and speaks to a particular bias, rather than an objective one.

If you had a close relative who was held hostage - let's say a young woman, a sister or best friend - what would you want your government to do?

But negotiations have brought home more. It’s been more successful.

The hostage families are calling for all parties to accept a ceasefire.

Surely there must be some moderate Israeli supporters on here? It’s hardly an extreme position to call for a ceasefire. This war has tarnished the international reputation of Israeli, destroyed Gaza, killed thousands of innocents, is starving a population, bolstered support within Gaza for Hamas and still has no viable post war plan to protect Israelis future security or give Palestinians a secure, prosperous future. The whole thing is a disaster no matter which side you are on.

Dulra · 10/06/2024 15:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

No most of us just aren't racist, prejudice or homophobic.

DownNative · 10/06/2024 15:36

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 15:12

I don’t think it is realistic that the hostages will be saved through rescue operations. I think a diplomatic solution is more realistic and will save lives. Negotiations have brought home over 100 hostages. How many have they saved now?

I think the hostages prioritised for saving to reduce the pressure on Netanyahu (internal pressure) to agree a ceasefire.

Edited

The possibility of Israel Defence Forces staging hostage rescue missions is a valid part of the strategy to pressure Hamas as Professor Eitan Shamir, director of the Begin-Sadat Center for Strategic Studies argued:

“While the operation could put some pressure on Hamas, which sees that Israel is successful in reaching areas it thought it couldn’t, this pressure alone is not enough to get Hamas to agree. There needs to be multiple points of pressure on Hamas, not only militarily. But so far, Hamas is not budging on its demand that Israel stop its war against it completely.”

What has been missing for a while is serious international pressure on Hamas as the majority of this pressure has been on Israel.

The tactical success in rescuing the four hostages could yet result in a significant strategic positive.

It has the potential to dial back the division between Israel and the United States that Hamas has been trying to achieve over the last seven or eight months.

But who's arguing that all the remaining hostages will be freed via rescue missions?

If that could be done, it constitutes the best way of freeing them, especially since Hamas will demand a heavy price in any deal, as Adv. Lt. Col. (Res) Avi Kalo makes clear:

“If Israel could release the hostages on an industrial scale through military operations, it would be a better option for it. This would not only fulfill the moral grounds of how to release the hostages but would also be a better way to deal with the heavy prices that Hamas demands when it comes to a deal.”

Important to keep in mind that Hamas needs the hostages to be alive because if they murder them, there would be no reason left for Israel to make a deal with them.

Indeed, I would suggest that Hamas are good propagandists and their recent claims of three hostages being killed should be taken as propaganda. We've seen how they engage in cognitive warfare with hostages previously. Their aim is to DARVO following Israel's successful hostage rescue in order to try maintaining international pressure on them rather than themselves. If the three hostages were killed, I would argue Hamas murdered them using their own guns. They are manipulative enough to then claim the IDF mission caused it.

More military and political pressure on Hamas is going to be key to long term peace and stability in the Middle East. But by no means the only factor needing dealt with.

Pav123 · 10/06/2024 15:38

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 15:43

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 15:01

Why do Iranian dissidents get beaten at 'pro-Palestine' marches for signs saying that Hamas are terrorists?

Why do 'innocent civilians' in Gaza hide hostages?

Why do polls show there is majority support for Hamas in Gaza?

Why can't people talk about the war without resorting to Jew hatred that gets them deleted & banned across these boards?

Why are people more concerned with dismantling Israel than helping the people in Gaza by getting rid of Hamas?

Why are people who are LGBT+ killed in Gaza?

Why have nearly all Jews been expelled from Muslim majority countries throughout Africa & the ME?

@Pav123

Care to engage in debate? Or are YOU here for BIASED ranting?

DuskyBlueDepartingLight · 10/06/2024 15:45

@Pav123

Here's the definition of Zionism.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism

You are being redirected...

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounder/zionism

SpottedLeopards · 10/06/2024 15:50

Dulra · 10/06/2024 15:30

No most of us just aren't racist, prejudice or homophobic.

I rest my case.

Dulra · 10/06/2024 16:02

SpottedLeopards · 10/06/2024 15:50

I rest my case.

What case are you resting care to expand on your 4 word response?

From what I’ve seen, there is a certain set of values people feel pressured into, in order to not be bullied by lefty/“woke” peers. These beliefs are contradictory and inconsistent, which makes it obvious that many do not think it through and simply parrot the ‘right’ answers to be safe from social censure.

The values you speak of are based on respect for something not belief in something, you seem to be assuming that people can't respect different faiths, sexualities and so on unless they also believe in them which is nonsense. I can respect other people's faith without following or believing in that faith myself.

O2AreAShowerofShite · 10/06/2024 16:06

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 15:28

But negotiations have brought home more. It’s been more successful.

The hostage families are calling for all parties to accept a ceasefire.

Surely there must be some moderate Israeli supporters on here? It’s hardly an extreme position to call for a ceasefire. This war has tarnished the international reputation of Israeli, destroyed Gaza, killed thousands of innocents, is starving a population, bolstered support within Gaza for Hamas and still has no viable post war plan to protect Israelis future security or give Palestinians a secure, prosperous future. The whole thing is a disaster no matter which side you are on.

But negotiations have brought home more. It’s been more successful.

Why do you see it as an either/or? They can carry out rescues where feasible, while also negotiating a ceasefire.

I'm in favour of a ceasefire, same as you. But a ceasefire needs to be negotiated. This requires both parties to be willing to compromise. Neither party can control the other, so if one side refuses to play ball, that stymies the other. Time may not be on the side of the hostages.

If one side identifies it has a good chance of rescuing hostages, it's going to do so regardless of other negotiations. Anything else is negligence in respect of its duties to safeguard its citizens.

Surely there must be some moderate Israeli supporters on here?

I'm not sure of your point. As far as I can see, there are measured voices on here on both sides and neither, in amongst the more blinkered and biased ones.

It’s hardly an extreme position to call for a ceasefire.

Agreed. Who's saying it is?

EdithStourton · 10/06/2024 16:19

stormy4319trevor · 10/06/2024 15:04

Do you think gay people are stupid? Are you suggesting they will blindly believe what Hamas says unless they are educated? Why would you say this about gay people? @EdithStourton

Edited

Well, I didn't say any of it, did I? So I'm not at all sure why you're tagging me.

If you read the post by @Northernnature she wasn't specifically having a go at 'gay people' but also mentioned 'young people' and 'etc'. It was a call for 'critical thinking'.

This is a classic case of posts being misconstrued.

It's very tiresome.

And what a bloody derail this thread has become.

DownNative · 10/06/2024 16:30

ConnieCounter · 09/06/2024 22:07

You might think it's brave. Others would consider it a war crime.

If this is true they'll probably have to deny it.

You're responding to the following as posted by @LordPercyPercy:

"Some more information about the rescue, unverified though:

"Per Saudi news, some of the special forces that entered Nuseirat posed as displaced Gazans from Rafah.

The disguised forces arrived in a white car carrying mattresses on top, and the women were dressed in local attire.

Locals asked where they came from and they answered that they were escaping the IDF operation in Rafah, and had rented a place in the area around the market in Nuseirat, pointing at the building where Noa Argamani was being held.

The unit then split into two groups, each heading towards one of the two buildings, in preparation for the operation.""

You're saying this constitutes a...war crime?

What does IHL say?

"Article 37 - Prohibition of perfidy

1. It is prohibited to kill, injure or capture an adversary by resort to perfidy."

What was shared by LordPercyPercy actually very clear that the disguising of Israel Defence Forces operatives was done for the perfectly legitimate reasons of:

  • entering Nuseirat undetected
  • moving inside Nuseirat undetected
  • ensuring their cover wasn't blown in Nuseirat before they reached the targeted location

It also makes it clear the IDF operatives went towards one of the buildings to begin preparing for Operation Summer Seeds.

None of that is close to a war crime.

In fact, that's called a ruse of war.

What does IHL say about that?

"Ruses of war are not prohibited. Such ruses are acts which are intended to mislead an adversary or to induce him to act recklessly but which infringe no rule of international law applicable in armed conflict and which are not perfidious because they do not invite the confidence of an adversary with respect to protection under that law. The following are examples of such ruses: the use of camouflage, decoys, mock operations and misinformation."

It is perfectly legal for soldiers to camouflage themselves in an urban area and using deception to get close to the target.

Dressing as civilians WOULD be war crime if the IDF had resorted to disguise for the PURPOSE of killing, injuring, or capturing an enemy.

But the PURPOSE here the INTENT was NOT to KILL, CAPTURE or INJURE the enemy.

The purpose AND intent was to RESCUE kidnapped hostages held prisoner in homes in Gaza.

When the rescue operation started, the Israel Defence Force operatives would have no longer appeared to be civilians to anyone since their weapons would have been very visibly out in the open!

The same logic also applies to undercover police officers operating amongst civilians and using deception to get close enough to various types of criminals.

Anyway, soldiers CAN disguise themselves in civilian clothing and drive civilian vehicles in order to remain undetected until they were ready to begin their operation.

As Kevin Jon Heller, Professor of Criminal Law at SOAS University of London and an Academic Member of Doughty Street Chambers, asserted on the very issue we're talking about:

"...the entire point of camouflage is to make the enemy believe it is surrounded only by civilian objects...."

That was the case in Nuseirat.

Cover was only blown when the IDF operatives were trying rescue the three male hostages. At that point, they came under heavy fire, aerial attacks became necessary due to the use of RPGs & machine guns by Hamas and a fire corridor by the IDF battalions was necessary in order to get the hostages away to safety.

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 16:50

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Are you suggesting that to be pro-islam, pro lbgtq and/or pro prostitution (not sure how that's even ended up in there 🙄 ) is stupid and wokist, and anyone sympathetic to these groups is only so because they've been pressured to be?

What has this thread even become?

PeasfullPerson · 10/06/2024 16:54

It has become very silly! That’s what it’s become. There is no evidence to support these ideas.

This reads as, you don’t agree with me and therefore there is something wrong with you.

anotherlevel · 10/06/2024 16:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Are you saying being pro Islam is inconsistent and contradictory?

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.