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Conflict in the Middle East

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Northernnature · 10/06/2024 13:42

Yes the willingness of people especially young people to not do any critical thinking or research has me shocked. I think the gays for palestine etc. need educating but who will do it?

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 13:46

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 13:33

It's quite sad that Mumsnet lets a whole thread stay up about the IDF "massacre", giving a forum to all those who think Hamas are blameless

Can you please name the poster on this thread who has said Hamas are blameless?

can you point out a person who seems to be impacted by “ pro Hamas propaganda “

Calling out the Israel authorities for apparent war crimes or criticism of their actions does not make someone pro Hamas or anti Israeli or anti Jewish. I have a lot of negative things to say about the Iranian government- nobody ever thinks I am anti ordinary Iranians or anti Muslim.

@SocoBateVira - of course it was a war crime. This is something we are all in agreement about. Holding civilian hostages is itself a war crime and there is absolutely no doubt about that. Which is why we are not arguing about it

Are we all in agreement about it? I'd like to hope you're right, but don't know that you're able to speak for everyone on this point. Also, I haven't seen any posts from anyone proactively considering Hamas' actions in this way until I prompted it. It's a long thread, so it's very possible I've missed something. If I haven't, that's telling in itself.

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 13:48

Northernnature · 10/06/2024 13:42

Yes the willingness of people especially young people to not do any critical thinking or research has me shocked. I think the gays for palestine etc. need educating but who will do it?

What do the gays for Palestine need educating about? 😳 can gay people not also be against killing children? Or should 'they' just shut up?

There's been a few dodgy posts on this thread. I suggest you all check your prejudices please?

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 13:48

Northernnature · 10/06/2024 13:42

Yes the willingness of people especially young people to not do any critical thinking or research has me shocked. I think the gays for palestine etc. need educating but who will do it?

I'd suggest going to Gaza, but that might be a bit logistically different. Iran are balls deep in this though, they'd get plenty of education there.

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 13:50

This thread has taken a very concerning turn 😳

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 13:54

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I can't actually believe you said that 😳

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 13:55

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 13:33

It's quite sad that Mumsnet lets a whole thread stay up about the IDF "massacre", giving a forum to all those who think Hamas are blameless

Can you please name the poster on this thread who has said Hamas are blameless?

can you point out a person who seems to be impacted by “ pro Hamas propaganda “

Calling out the Israel authorities for apparent war crimes or criticism of their actions does not make someone pro Hamas or anti Israeli or anti Jewish. I have a lot of negative things to say about the Iranian government- nobody ever thinks I am anti ordinary Iranians or anti Muslim.

@SocoBateVira - of course it was a war crime. This is something we are all in agreement about. Holding civilian hostages is itself a war crime and there is absolutely no doubt about that. Which is why we are not arguing about it

The whole thread is based on Hamas press release. You can't get much more pro Hamas than parroting their views

It's them calling it a massacre by the IDF

It was a complex rescue operation to save innocent hostages held in Gaza. It's open to debate whether the people keeping hostages were Hamas or ordinary gazans but Hamas were the ones opening fire on the rescuers and hostages.

ChickyBricky · 10/06/2024 13:56

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 13:54

I can't actually believe you said that 😳

Said what?

Do you mean "brown people"? Yes, it's a ridiculous racist thing to say. And it crops up here a lot. MN has many posters who say things like "You just think brown people's lives don't matter" as though this makes any sense at all!

I'm taking the piss out of it, not condoning it FFS

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 13:56

@HelenHen Prejudices or experiences?

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 13:57

MissConductUS · 10/06/2024 13:36

I mean even the US, their steadfast supporters, agree.

Not about the hostage rescue. From the WSJ:

Blaming Israel for Rescuing Its People - Hamas hid four hostages in a crowded civilian area and fired on rescuers.

It’s rare good news in a grinding war. On Saturday Israeli commandos rescued four hostages from two civilian buildings near the heart of Gaza’s Nuseirat market. It was a high-risk but well-planned and -executed mission that is a morale boost for Israelis.

Arnon Zamora was killed while leading the rescue mission at the head of his force. He will go down in history with Yoni Netanyahu, the fallen leader of Israel’s 1976 raid to free hostages in Entebbe, Uganda.

Noa Argamani, age 26, Almog Meir Jan, 21, Andrey Kozlov, 27, and Shlomi Ziv, 40, were all abducted during the music-festival massacre. A video showed Ms. Argamani begging for her life. Eight months later she heard a knock on the door: “It’s the IDF, we’ve come to rescue you.” She can now visit her terminally ill mother. Mr. Jan was mobbed on his return by friends chanting, “He is one of us, and we will never give him up,” a refrain of sports teammates now given new meaning. Mr. Jan’s father died hours before his son’s return.

The non-surprise is that professional anti-Israel voices, United Nations officials and the European Union foreign-policy chief rushed to attack Israel. Egypt condemned the operation “in the strongest terms.” How dare Israel rescue its own citizens. Didn’t it know there would be casualties? The BBC asked whether Israel gave a warning that the rescue raid was coming. Seriously? A tip-off to terrorists? Perhaps read them Miranda rights too.

“BREAKING: Gaza’s Health Ministry says 274 Palestinians were killed during the Israeli operation,” reports the Associated Press, only 48 hours after it had exposed how the Hamas ministry’s daily death tolls are “at odds with underlying data.” When will the media stop taking the kidnappers at their word?

Haters of Israel will blame it and excuse Hamas every time, and the media are easily manipulated into playing along. The Hamas figure is likely inflated, and it includes the terrorists killed trying to stop the rescue as well as those who hid the hostages.

Hamas started the war with a massacre, took these hostages and hid them in a crowded civilian area. Then, when Israel came to free them, Hamas responded with heavy fire, including RPGs—yet people are condemning Israel. It makes us wonder if the West has lost the moral discernment and instinct for self-preservation needed to defend itself in a world of killers. Hamas could not survive if not for its enablers around the world.

You can tell your reading a highly biased article there right?

they did not directly condemn this operation but they called for a diplomatic solution.

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 13:57

Speaking as a bisexual woman who's worked extensively with gay and lesbian refugees from societies where they're persecuted for their sexuality, I'll be taking precisely no lessons from @HelenHen.

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 14:00

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 13:57

Speaking as a bisexual woman who's worked extensively with gay and lesbian refugees from societies where they're persecuted for their sexuality, I'll be taking precisely no lessons from @HelenHen.

Yet you suggest sending 'gays' to Iran for 'educating'? 😳

EdithStourton · 10/06/2024 14:01

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 13:48

What do the gays for Palestine need educating about? 😳 can gay people not also be against killing children? Or should 'they' just shut up?

There's been a few dodgy posts on this thread. I suggest you all check your prejudices please?

I have it on good authority* that Hamas are very concerned by the fact that gays in the west have actual rights.

Of course, that is no reason why gay people can't support Palestinian statehood, but it might give them pause for thought when thinking about Hamas.

*Someone who used to work for the UN and dealt with them.

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 14:02

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 14:00

Yet you suggest sending 'gays' to Iran for 'educating'? 😳

Erm, no. Try again.

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 14:04

And what... does any of that... have to do with this thread? 😳

I need to remove myself from here for a bit, because I can't quite believe what I'm reading!

Dulra · 10/06/2024 14:05

EdithStourton · 10/06/2024 14:01

I have it on good authority* that Hamas are very concerned by the fact that gays in the west have actual rights.

Of course, that is no reason why gay people can't support Palestinian statehood, but it might give them pause for thought when thinking about Hamas.

*Someone who used to work for the UN and dealt with them.

When are people going to stop equating support for Palestinians with Hamas? People are concerned and speaking out against the death and destruction in Gaza not supporting Hamas. It is so easy for people to dismiss everyone as Hamas supporters because it just means you can ignore what's happening to innocent Palestinians

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 14:07

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 13:55

The whole thread is based on Hamas press release. You can't get much more pro Hamas than parroting their views

It's them calling it a massacre by the IDF

It was a complex rescue operation to save innocent hostages held in Gaza. It's open to debate whether the people keeping hostages were Hamas or ordinary gazans but Hamas were the ones opening fire on the rescuers and hostages.

A whole host of countries in the west have pointed out that innocent people died and called for a negotiated ceasefire. Have they all been impacted by “pro Hamas propaganda “ ?

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 14:09

@mollyfolk I don't think any of them have started a thread on Mumsnet about the "massacre by the IDF" and shared a piece based on Hamas statements 🤷🏻‍♀️

anotherlevel · 10/06/2024 14:10

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HelenHen · 10/06/2024 14:14

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Please report it. I didn't pick up on that, but I'm very paranoid after an incident last week. We need to report it any time we see it, as it's just not on.

mollyfolk · 10/06/2024 14:15

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 14:09

@mollyfolk I don't think any of them have started a thread on Mumsnet about the "massacre by the IDF" and shared a piece based on Hamas statements 🤷🏻‍♀️

The article shared is by an Irish site is not pro Hamas. It quotes the Hamas press office but the quote in the title is from an MSF doctor.

So do you agree that a diplomatic solution to the hostage release is preferable to military action like this to save every hostage then?

ChickyBricky · 10/06/2024 14:16

It would be interesting if the Venn diagram also covered age group. The more I see the reactive half-thoughts flung out on here, the more I wonder if part of Hamas's propaganda success is that whole generations in the West have grown up to absorb information superficially, through images and headlines. That's very easy for them to manipulate.

anotherlevel · 10/06/2024 14:17

@HelenHen

"Please report it. I didn't pick up on that, but I'm very paranoid after an incident last week. We need to report it any time we see it, as it's just not on."

This is the thing I did report it and MN said nothing.

Februaryfeels · 10/06/2024 14:20

@mollyfolk Paragraphs 1 and 3 of the article in the link say quite clearly that it is a Hamas spokesman calling it a massacre.

EdithStourton · 10/06/2024 14:21

Dulra · 10/06/2024 14:05

When are people going to stop equating support for Palestinians with Hamas? People are concerned and speaking out against the death and destruction in Gaza not supporting Hamas. It is so easy for people to dismiss everyone as Hamas supporters because it just means you can ignore what's happening to innocent Palestinians

That wasn't what I did.

I said, 'Of course, that is no reason why gay people can't support Palestinian statehood, but it might give them pause for thought when thinking about Hamas.'

If you conflate that with 'equating support for Palestinians with Hamas', I can't help you.

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