Israel rescues four hostages alive from Gaza who were captured by Hamas at Nova music festival on October 7 - including girl seen kidnapped on back of motorbike

[keenforhelp]

Well done Israel - fantastic, wonderful news
xxx

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13508615/Israel-rescues-four-hostages-alive-Gaza-Noa-Argamani-motorbike.html

It's possible to successfully negotiate with some terrorists. That fact doesn't tell us whether any given group of terrorists are willing to negotiate or not.

Do you understand that my comment 'you can negotiate with terrorists' was in response to your 'you cannot negotiate with terrorists'. I did not imply that you personally would be sitting at the table... I doubt a mumsnet negotiation table would help the process at all 😂

I did of course however just because I consider you cannot negotiate with Hamas, does not mean I will not compromise. You cannot compromise with Hamas.

I think a MN table with Bibi and Hamas leaders would be quite um interesting!

You can't negotiate with terrorists, who constantly say over and over they want toannihilated jews, I mean you can but its incredibly stupid and just gives them time to retrain and rearm for another Oct 7th, because that is their aim, they don't want anything else, they don't want to save their citizens, they've said that and their actions demonstrate that with their human shields, they just want time to do it again.

Yes, it's been there and failed... as did similar discussions in Northern Ireland many times. That does not mean anyone should give up. The alternative to peace talks is to continue fighting and killing. I doubt anyone wants that.

God helps us all if they did!

We wouldn't do any worse!

I guess they've tried everything else 😂

Should we volunteer? I'll bring the wine.

And I will bring the cheese :)

Thank you for posting this. I am Jewish.

I agree there is a silent majority who can absolutely see through the pro-Hamas propaganda & enablement.

It is baffling why seemingly progressive people would align themselves with a fascist terrorist group.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/article/2024/may/20/salman-rushdie-says-a-palestinian-state-formed-today-would-be-taliban-like

Israel rescued four hostages & this amazing effort deserves celebration.

See! How hard can this shit be? 😂😂

Important distinction to make, so thank you for making that point.

Another point is one that is much less considered by the general population - what are the factors that leads to successful negotiations with a terrorist organisation? Why do some terrorist groups enter peace processes and others don't?

In reality, what successful negotiations looks like can also be misleading to the perceptions of the general population too. It can suit a Sovereign Power for the general population to have a Disneyified perception of what actually happened to not only get to the point of negotiations but to conclude them successfully. By the same token, it can also suit a terrorist group for their followers and supporters to have a Disneyified perception of negotiations and final agreement.

Different objectives and different sets of perception management.

When you look at the end result of a set of successful negotiations, you really have to keep in mind what the long held key core objectives of the parties involved actually was. Does it match up with the end result of the agreements reached? If not, why not?

As I said, the general population much prefer a Disneyified version and rarely think further than this.

Ultimately, what is true is often not important. It's what is perceived that is important. A salient point made by a man I have a lot of respect for as a person even if his politics are very, very different to mine. 👍

Anyway, some quick points to consider to add your very underrated and astute observation!

This, in spades.

The Venn diagram would be interesting with pro Palestinian/covid jabs/trump

In the real world, outside Mumsnet, few people spend much time caring.

I was at an event on Saturday with a flag waver handing out leaflets to all and sundry. All scrunched up and thrown in the direction of the bins

It's quite sad that Mumsnet lets a whole thread stay up about the IDF "massacre", giving a forum to all those who think Hamas are blameless

They took the hostages, gazans housed the hostages and Hamas launched weapons at the rescuers

But apparently IDF bad because reasons

https://www.timesofisrael.com/hero-of-israel-thousands-pay-last-respects-to-officer-killed-in-hostage-rescue-op/

Incredibly sad but moving article about Arnon Zmora, the officer killed during the rescue operation.
"Among those paying tribute to Zmora was Aviram Meir, the uncle of Almog Meir Jan, one of the hostages rescued during Saturday’s daylight operation.

Arnon “brought joy to the families, you brought joy to the people of Israel,” Aviram Meir said through tears.

“I would like to address the Zmora family and tell you that the blood of your children is mixed with ours. This is an unbreakable alliance. I thank you from the bottom of my heart.”

Thanks for posting.

What a wonderful man x

This 100 %

Hasn’t negotiation released 105 hostages?

How many have they rescued?

hopefully the ceasefire deal in the table will go through, it will secure the release of all the hostages.

Yes; and the persistent lie that every. single. casualty/death is an "innocent civilian." I'm not quite sure where Hamas and their numerous supporters are supposed to be located. Someone's aiming missiles at Israel from somewhere, but presumably they don't really mean it, they're just waiting for the opportunity to have a sensible chat and agree peace. I think they just dug those tunnels so as to keep their children safe until Israel loses interest in its spontaneous murder spree.

The Venn diagram would be interesting with pro Palestinian/covid jabs/trump

what you’re seeing is more likely to lean pro Palestinian/anti-west/Corbyn

Yes I would say that too. The anti-vax/Trump brigade are more your libertarian free-speecher types. Although both groups happily deploy the same anti-(((globalist))) tropes.

It's quite sad that Mumsnet lets a whole thread stay up about the IDF "massacre", giving a forum to all those who think Hamas are blameless

Can you please name the poster on this thread who has said Hamas are blameless?

can you point out a person who seems to be impacted by “ pro Hamas propaganda “

Calling out the Israel authorities for apparent war crimes or criticism of their actions does not make someone pro Hamas or anti Israeli or anti Jewish. I have a lot of negative things to say about the Iranian government- nobody ever thinks I am anti ordinary Iranians or anti Muslim.

@SocoBateVira - of course it was a war crime. This is something we are all in agreement about. Holding civilian hostages is itself a war crime and there is absolutely no doubt about that. Which is why we are not arguing about it

Mmm I think so. It's not like with Ukraine where the absolute scum of the far right and far left hold the same Russia licking views. There isn't the same horseshoe on Israel/Palestine.

I mean even the US, their steadfast supporters, agree.

Not about the hostage rescue. From the WSJ:

Blaming Israel for Rescuing Its People - Hamas hid four hostages in a crowded civilian area and fired on rescuers.

It’s rare good news in a grinding war. On Saturday Israeli commandos rescued four hostages from two civilian buildings near the heart of Gaza’s Nuseirat market. It was a high-risk but well-planned and -executed mission that is a morale boost for Israelis.

Arnon Zamora was killed while leading the rescue mission at the head of his force. He will go down in history with Yoni Netanyahu, the fallen leader of Israel’s 1976 raid to free hostages in Entebbe, Uganda.

Noa Argamani, age 26, Almog Meir Jan, 21, Andrey Kozlov, 27, and Shlomi Ziv, 40, were all abducted during the music-festival massacre. A video showed Ms. Argamani begging for her life. Eight months later she heard a knock on the door: “It’s the IDF, we’ve come to rescue you.” She can now visit her terminally ill mother. Mr. Jan was mobbed on his return by friends chanting, “He is one of us, and we will never give him up,” a refrain of sports teammates now given new meaning. Mr. Jan’s father died hours before his son’s return.

The non-surprise is that professional anti-Israel voices, United Nations officials and the European Union foreign-policy chief rushed to attack Israel. Egypt condemned the operation “in the strongest terms.” How dare Israel rescue its own citizens. Didn’t it know there would be casualties? The BBC asked whether Israel gave a warning that the rescue raid was coming. Seriously? A tip-off to terrorists? Perhaps read them Miranda rights too.

“BREAKING: Gaza’s Health Ministry says 274 Palestinians were killed during the Israeli operation,” reports the Associated Press, only 48 hours after it had exposed how the Hamas ministry’s daily death tolls are “at odds with underlying data.” When will the media stop taking the kidnappers at their word?

Haters of Israel will blame it and excuse Hamas every time, and the media are easily manipulated into playing along. The Hamas figure is likely inflated, and it includes the terrorists killed trying to stop the rescue as well as those who hid the hostages.

Hamas started the war with a massacre, took these hostages and hid them in a crowded civilian area. Then, when Israel came to free them, Hamas responded with heavy fire, including RPGs—yet people are condemning Israel. It makes us wonder if the West has lost the moral discernment and instinct for self-preservation needed to defend itself in a world of killers. Hamas could not survive if not for its enablers around the world.