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Conflict in the Middle East

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Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 08:41

ConnieCounter · 09/06/2024 22:07

You might think it's brave. Others would consider it a war crime.

If this is true they'll probably have to deny it.

I think infiltration and rescue of innocent people who were kidnapped and kept hostage by terrorists is the right thing to do. You obviously don't. How about you spread your comments on the other thousand threads there are and leave the one happy that hostages are released alone.

Is that too much to ask you. Constant goading by some. It doesn't help the overall situation at all.

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 08:50

keenforhelp · 09/06/2024 23:52

More information on Al Jazeerah journalist hid Israeli hostages for Hamas,.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/father-israeli-hostage-almog-jan-died-of-grief-hours-before/

A Palestinian journalist was hiding Israeli hostages in his home for Hamas, Israel said on Sunday.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said that Abdullah al-Jamal, who wrote for the Palestine Chronicle, a US-based non profit news website, was keeping Almog Meir Jan, Andrey Kozlov, and Shlomiz Siv captive in his family home.
The IDF stormed the home by ladder and killed Jamal, his father Dr Ahmed, and his wife, Fatima in the raid that freed the trio on Saturday.
Jamal had once written for Al Jazeera, which has been temporarily banned within Israel. In a post on Twitter, the IDF asked the Qatar-owned news channel: “What’s this terrorist doing on your website?“Abdallah’s home held hostages, along with his family members,” the IDF said. “This is further proof that the terrorist organisation Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield.”
The Al Jazeera biography for the journalist calls him “a Gaza based reporter and photojournalist. He often reports from the ongoing ‘March of Return’ protests at the fence separating besieged Gaza from Israel”.
The Palestine Chronicle describes itself as a “non-profit organisation whose mission is to educate the general public by providing a forum that strives to highlight issues of relevance to human rights”.
The Hamas journalist was filing stories about Israel’s war in Gaza while the hostages were held in his home.
Among the articles were, “Resistance our only option – Palestinians react to news of Israeli soldiers captured in Jabaliya”, “31 Martyrs in a single Israeli strike – Voices from the Gaza Genocide” and “Testimonies from ‘Camp 2’ massacre in Nuseirat”.
On Sunday, a ban on Al Jazeera’s operations in Israel was extended for another 45 days by the country’s telecoms regulator after the cabinet agreed its broadcasts pose a threat to security.
Israeli authorities raided a Jerusalem hotel room used by Al Jazeera as its office on May 5 and said they were shutting the operation down for the duration of the Gaza war.
Shlomo Karhi, Israel’s communications minister, said: “We will not allow the terrorist channel Al Jazeera to broadcast from Israel and endanger our fighters. In light of the seriousness of the damage to the security of the state I am convinced that the closure orders will be extended in the future as well.”
‘I screamed his name’On Sunday, it emerged that the father of rescued Mr Jan “died of grief” just hours before his son returned home, his family has said.
Yossi Meir, 59, died of a heart attack before the news broke that the IDF had freed his son in the raid.
The army were unable to contact Mr Meir to tell him the news and reached out to his sister Dina Jan instead. Ms Jan, who said she “was so happy I didn’t know what to do”, rushed to Mr Meir’s home in Kfar Saba, in the south of Israel.
She found her brother had died, after months of agonising waiting.
Ms Jan told Israel’s Kan News: “I drove like crazy, I knocked, ‘Yossi, Yossi, Yossi’, and nothing. I got no answer. The door of his house was open and I saw him sleeping in the living room.
“I screamed ‘Yossi’ to him and he didn’t answer me. I saw the colour of his skin, I touched him, but he was dead.”
Mr Meir had lost 20 kilograms since the capture, “glued to the television for the whole eight months, clinging to every piece of information”, Ms Jan said. She added: “My brother died of grief and didn’t get to see his son return.”
It is believed Mr Meir died on Friday night. “We are very happy about Almog’s return, but the brain is unable to absorb that this is the end. We are broken,” Ms Jan said.
A complex rescue operationThe IDF said the operation to rescue Mr Jan was one of its most complex ever, with two separate rescues of four captives in broad daylight.
They said troops came under heavy gunfire from hundreds of Hamas forces during the operation, which brought together elite Israeli units in an undercover mission across air, land and sea.

The rescuers came under fire from hundreds of hamas fighters.....

NecessaryNC24 · 10/06/2024 08:58

keenforhelp · 09/06/2024 23:52

More information on Al Jazeerah journalist hid Israeli hostages for Hamas,.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/09/father-israeli-hostage-almog-jan-died-of-grief-hours-before/

A Palestinian journalist was hiding Israeli hostages in his home for Hamas, Israel said on Sunday.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said that Abdullah al-Jamal, who wrote for the Palestine Chronicle, a US-based non profit news website, was keeping Almog Meir Jan, Andrey Kozlov, and Shlomiz Siv captive in his family home.
The IDF stormed the home by ladder and killed Jamal, his father Dr Ahmed, and his wife, Fatima in the raid that freed the trio on Saturday.
Jamal had once written for Al Jazeera, which has been temporarily banned within Israel. In a post on Twitter, the IDF asked the Qatar-owned news channel: “What’s this terrorist doing on your website?“Abdallah’s home held hostages, along with his family members,” the IDF said. “This is further proof that the terrorist organisation Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield.”
The Al Jazeera biography for the journalist calls him “a Gaza based reporter and photojournalist. He often reports from the ongoing ‘March of Return’ protests at the fence separating besieged Gaza from Israel”.
The Palestine Chronicle describes itself as a “non-profit organisation whose mission is to educate the general public by providing a forum that strives to highlight issues of relevance to human rights”.
The Hamas journalist was filing stories about Israel’s war in Gaza while the hostages were held in his home.
Among the articles were, “Resistance our only option – Palestinians react to news of Israeli soldiers captured in Jabaliya”, “31 Martyrs in a single Israeli strike – Voices from the Gaza Genocide” and “Testimonies from ‘Camp 2’ massacre in Nuseirat”.
On Sunday, a ban on Al Jazeera’s operations in Israel was extended for another 45 days by the country’s telecoms regulator after the cabinet agreed its broadcasts pose a threat to security.
Israeli authorities raided a Jerusalem hotel room used by Al Jazeera as its office on May 5 and said they were shutting the operation down for the duration of the Gaza war.
Shlomo Karhi, Israel’s communications minister, said: “We will not allow the terrorist channel Al Jazeera to broadcast from Israel and endanger our fighters. In light of the seriousness of the damage to the security of the state I am convinced that the closure orders will be extended in the future as well.”
‘I screamed his name’On Sunday, it emerged that the father of rescued Mr Jan “died of grief” just hours before his son returned home, his family has said.
Yossi Meir, 59, died of a heart attack before the news broke that the IDF had freed his son in the raid.
The army were unable to contact Mr Meir to tell him the news and reached out to his sister Dina Jan instead. Ms Jan, who said she “was so happy I didn’t know what to do”, rushed to Mr Meir’s home in Kfar Saba, in the south of Israel.
She found her brother had died, after months of agonising waiting.
Ms Jan told Israel’s Kan News: “I drove like crazy, I knocked, ‘Yossi, Yossi, Yossi’, and nothing. I got no answer. The door of his house was open and I saw him sleeping in the living room.
“I screamed ‘Yossi’ to him and he didn’t answer me. I saw the colour of his skin, I touched him, but he was dead.”
Mr Meir had lost 20 kilograms since the capture, “glued to the television for the whole eight months, clinging to every piece of information”, Ms Jan said. She added: “My brother died of grief and didn’t get to see his son return.”
It is believed Mr Meir died on Friday night. “We are very happy about Almog’s return, but the brain is unable to absorb that this is the end. We are broken,” Ms Jan said.
A complex rescue operationThe IDF said the operation to rescue Mr Jan was one of its most complex ever, with two separate rescues of four captives in broad daylight.
They said troops came under heavy gunfire from hundreds of Hamas forces during the operation, which brought together elite Israeli units in an undercover mission across air, land and sea.

Thank you for the clarification keen.

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 09:22

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 08:41

I think infiltration and rescue of innocent people who were kidnapped and kept hostage by terrorists is the right thing to do. You obviously don't. How about you spread your comments on the other thousand threads there are and leave the one happy that hostages are released alone.

Is that too much to ask you. Constant goading by some. It doesn't help the overall situation at all.

I didn't say that so please stop imagining what you think I've said.

It's a valid point, that soldiers pretending to be refugees may be a war crime.

I had not engaged with this thread initially, and even made my own thread to discuss the loss of over 270 people during this "mission", but seeing as people couldn't respect that space I feel it should be OK for everyone to post on both threads.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 09:23

Diablical, inhumane treatment of a total innocent:

Noa Argamani, 26, did not see sunlight for 245 days before daring Israeli special forces rescue.

As a picture was released of the squalid room where Noa was found, she has revealed she was held by a 'well-to-do' family but kept under armed guard, was rarely allowed to wash and never saw daylight as she was moved from house to house at night while dressed as an Arab in a bid to evade detection.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13511807/Noa-Argamani-Israel-rescue.html

Hostage did not see sunlight for 245 days before rescue

The 26-year-old, who was reunited with her ecstatic family on Saturday, had become the face of the October 7 massacre after video emerged of her screaming 'Don't kill me'.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13511807/Noa-Argamani-Israel-rescue.html

OP posts:
LordPercyPercy · 10/06/2024 09:25

I had not engaged with this thread initially, and even made my own thread to discuss the loss of over 270 people during this "mission", but seeing as people couldn't respect that space I feel it should be OK for everyone to post on both threads.

You've had a few dissenting voices on your other thread but nothing like the level of derailment on this one.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 09:30

ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 09:22

I didn't say that so please stop imagining what you think I've said.

It's a valid point, that soldiers pretending to be refugees may be a war crime.

I had not engaged with this thread initially, and even made my own thread to discuss the loss of over 270 people during this "mission", but seeing as people couldn't respect that space I feel it should be OK for everyone to post on both threads.

@ConnieCounter what do you mean by "people couldn't respect that space" on the other thread.

What were they writing that was not respecting that space compared to what was written by dissenting posters on this thread?

OP posts:
ConnieCounter · 10/06/2024 09:34

I'm not responsible for other posters so you'll have to take that up with them.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 10/06/2024 09:49

Anyway, so glad that four have been rescued and here's hoping for a speedy and safe return for the remaining ones - and for the return of the remains of those who were murdered also.

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 09:55

Just incredible to think Abdullah Al Jamal was writing those articles when he had actual fucking hostages in his house.

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 10:04

https://allisrael.com/operation-arnon-all-the-details-about-the-heroic-operation-that-freed-4-israeli-hostages-from-the-heart-of-gaza

This report shows how the first rescue of Noa went relatively smoothly with only hamas killed. The next rescue mission encountered gunfire and RPGs from surrounding buildings when civilians were killed in the battle. If people hadn't fired as they were rescuing from the surrounding buildings then the number killed would be far less.

"Each stage of the operation was accompanied by withering gun and RPG fire from surrounding buildings and alleys in the crowded civilian area, leading to many casualties among terrorists and civilians.
During the hour-long extraction phase, one of the rescue vehicles came under heavy fire and got stuck. The IAF had to launch heavy suppressing fire from the air before a reserve force comprising several battalions of the 98th Division moved into action, creating a fire corridor to rescue the hostages and the troops."

'Operation Arnon': All the details about the heroic operation that freed 4 Israeli hostages from the heart of Gaza

Hundreds of Israeli Navy, Air Force, ground and commando forces were involved

https://allisrael.com/operation-arnon-all-the-details-about-the-heroic-operation-that-freed-4-israeli-hostages-from-the-heart-of-gaza

SilverCatStripes · 10/06/2024 10:07

Every single time posters come on the threads which are supportive to Israelis to derail it highlights exactly why we need to be supportive of Jewish people, and keep showing our support.

I am not Jewish and it’s obvious to me exactly who the aggressors are in this conflict, it’s interesting how the Hamas PR machine has been targeting social media and students - ie people ripe for a bit of indoctrination, but back out here in the real world (away from the media) your friend’s, neighbours , fellow Europeans and the rest of the world can all see what’s happening, and you are supported.

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 10:15

If people hadn't fired as they were rescuing from the surrounding buildings then the number killed would be far less.

Wonder if we're going to hear any complaints about proportionality on that point? Hamas really did risk a lot of innocent lives there in order to try and keep hold of their civilian hostages. Seems rather, well, disproportionate.

Perhaps they or the people who usually swallow their claims can come out and explain why the civilian cost of trying to prevent the hostage rescue was worth the potential military advantage.

CloudyAgain · 10/06/2024 10:17

Thanks @SilverCatStripes . I am Jewish and have been absolutely heartbroken at the amount of vicious anti semitism that has occurred in the UK and elsewhere after October 7. My parents live abroad and their synagogue has had to shut it's doors because they consider it simply too dangerous to open - and they have had armed security guards for years due to viable threats anyway.

DH is Christian so the DCs know both sides and they are terrified that people know we have Jewish blood. It's baffling to me though that Jewish people around the globe who may have no contacts - or indeed interest - in Israel are being targeted. I don't blame my Russian friends (and i have many because I studied Russian at university and lived there for a few years) for the actions of Putin.

I am so desperately sad about this war. The loss of innocent lives on both sides is just unspeakable and I pray so much that it ends.

Alwayslookonthe · 10/06/2024 10:27

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 10:04

https://allisrael.com/operation-arnon-all-the-details-about-the-heroic-operation-that-freed-4-israeli-hostages-from-the-heart-of-gaza

This report shows how the first rescue of Noa went relatively smoothly with only hamas killed. The next rescue mission encountered gunfire and RPGs from surrounding buildings when civilians were killed in the battle. If people hadn't fired as they were rescuing from the surrounding buildings then the number killed would be far less.

"Each stage of the operation was accompanied by withering gun and RPG fire from surrounding buildings and alleys in the crowded civilian area, leading to many casualties among terrorists and civilians.
During the hour-long extraction phase, one of the rescue vehicles came under heavy fire and got stuck. The IAF had to launch heavy suppressing fire from the air before a reserve force comprising several battalions of the 98th Division moved into action, creating a fire corridor to rescue the hostages and the troops."

Thanks for posting. I am glad to see they have renamed the operation after Arnon Zmora, the officer killed during the rescue.

ChickyBricky · 10/06/2024 10:27

@SilverCatStripes that's exactly how I feel, and why as a non-Jew I try to stick up for Israel on these threads, because the dominant narrative plays into Hamas's hands even if that wasn't the poster's intentions.

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 10:33

SocoBateVira · 10/06/2024 10:15

If people hadn't fired as they were rescuing from the surrounding buildings then the number killed would be far less.

Wonder if we're going to hear any complaints about proportionality on that point? Hamas really did risk a lot of innocent lives there in order to try and keep hold of their civilian hostages. Seems rather, well, disproportionate.

Perhaps they or the people who usually swallow their claims can come out and explain why the civilian cost of trying to prevent the hostage rescue was worth the potential military advantage.

Indeed. They wanted to keep those hostages more than they wanted to preserve life of people around them. They have other hostages. They really don't care because when innocents are caught in the crossfire they can use that to gain more support. It's disgusting how Hamas continue to use their people.

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 10:36

CloudyAgain · 10/06/2024 10:17

Thanks @SilverCatStripes . I am Jewish and have been absolutely heartbroken at the amount of vicious anti semitism that has occurred in the UK and elsewhere after October 7. My parents live abroad and their synagogue has had to shut it's doors because they consider it simply too dangerous to open - and they have had armed security guards for years due to viable threats anyway.

DH is Christian so the DCs know both sides and they are terrified that people know we have Jewish blood. It's baffling to me though that Jewish people around the globe who may have no contacts - or indeed interest - in Israel are being targeted. I don't blame my Russian friends (and i have many because I studied Russian at university and lived there for a few years) for the actions of Putin.

I am so desperately sad about this war. The loss of innocent lives on both sides is just unspeakable and I pray so much that it ends.

This.

I'm not Jewish but I cannot understand the hatred towards Jewish people in the UK and other countries.

I also hope it ends soon.

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 10:50

Alwayslookonthe · 10/06/2024 10:27

Thanks for posting. I am glad to see they have renamed the operation after Arnon Zmora, the officer killed during the rescue.

I made the post also to demonstrate that there was no intention to kill civilians as some would suggest. The first rescue went well and only Hamas killed.

However, the second rescue encountered extreme fire, should they then not fire back? They became stuck with their hostages and needed rescuing, again this lead to deaths, should they just sit there under fire and not fight back. Some have no idea how much planning goes into rescue missions and the intention was not to kill just to rescue.

Kindatired · 10/06/2024 10:56

@Thisagainandagain
That is a very good point.
Hamas operatives are ruthless terrorists prepared sacrificing their own families, never mind innocent civilians. This is the reason both sides need to be dragged to the negotiating table.
It’s s likely the other surviving hostages will now be moved into tunnels that will be less amenable to this type of operation.
From todays New York Times,Avi Kalo, a lieutenant colonel in the Israeli reserves who once led a military intelligence department that dealt with prisoners of war and missing people is reported as saying “
“Hamas still has dozens of hostages, the vast majority of whom, if not all, will not be released in operations, but can be rescued only as part of a cease-fire deal.”
A ceasefire or pause in the fighting and negotiated hostage release is the way forward that will save lives on both sides.

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 11:05

The planned massacre comments from some are inaccurate since the first rescue went smoothly with only hamas killed.

The second rescue encountered fire from lots of buildings surrounding and that then became a mission to get out alive. There was no intention to 'massacre ' as some people have dreadfully claimed. Once escaping under extreme fire one fires back. One doesn't just sit there and die. The onus is on the people firing at escaping hostages who didn't care who died they just didn't want them to escape. Without the extreme fire it would have gone the same as the first rescue and they would have got out. No civilian deaths.

Any country would rescue hostages and have done in history where they can. The aim to rescue. Completely inappropriate to suggest the aim was a massacre not a rescue as some do. I don't bother with those threads since it's pointless.

Thisagainandagain · 10/06/2024 11:10

The Entebbe raid was a rescue mission where 3 hostages died and many rescued from the terrorists who had hijacked the plane. I think it's the biggest hostage rescue ever?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entebbe_raid

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 11:13

Kindatired · 10/06/2024 10:56

@Thisagainandagain
That is a very good point.
Hamas operatives are ruthless terrorists prepared sacrificing their own families, never mind innocent civilians. This is the reason both sides need to be dragged to the negotiating table.
It’s s likely the other surviving hostages will now be moved into tunnels that will be less amenable to this type of operation.
From todays New York Times,Avi Kalo, a lieutenant colonel in the Israeli reserves who once led a military intelligence department that dealt with prisoners of war and missing people is reported as saying “
“Hamas still has dozens of hostages, the vast majority of whom, if not all, will not be released in operations, but can be rescued only as part of a cease-fire deal.”
A ceasefire or pause in the fighting and negotiated hostage release is the way forward that will save lives on both sides.

The only way to save more lives is for Hamas and those complicit in Palestine (probably hundreds of thousands) to lay down their arms, surrender and release the hostages.

You cannot negotiate with terrorists!

OP posts:
HelenHen · 10/06/2024 11:16

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 11:13

The only way to save more lives is for Hamas and those complicit in Palestine (probably hundreds of thousands) to lay down their arms, surrender and release the hostages.

You cannot negotiate with terrorists!

It's not the only way at all.

You certainly can negotiate with terrorists. Multiple agencies have done in the past, leading to a positive outcome. To dismiss it out of hand simply shows that you are not willing to compromise in any way.

keenforhelp · 10/06/2024 11:19

HelenHen · 10/06/2024 11:16

It's not the only way at all.

You certainly can negotiate with terrorists. Multiple agencies have done in the past, leading to a positive outcome. To dismiss it out of hand simply shows that you are not willing to compromise in any way.

It's been tried here and failed. Hamas do not want to surrender or release.
Can't have a ceasefire unless the Gazan terror administration have gone.

It is up to the Israelis and Hamas to sort this out - what they do does not reflect on whether I want to compromise or not.

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