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Conflict in the Middle East

Tel Aviv under attack from at least eight rockets fired from Rafah in Gaza

342 replies

keenforhelp · 27/05/2024 20:54

Hamas's military wing claimed responsibility for the attack on Sunday, according to Press Association.

What happened after by Israeli airstrikes was truly terrible - a real tragedy.

But why are Hamas still firing rockets deliberately at a residential city with no combatants.
As long as Hamas are in power rockets will never stop. Plus all the Aid Britain and America are giving just goes straight to Hamas. They started the war haven’t released the hostages and have no intention of surrendering.
The UN orders Israel to stop fighting.
But Hamas are free to continue their attacks.
Makes sense to someone I guess...........

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13461325/Tel-Aviv-attack-eight-rockets-fired-Rafah-Gaza.html

Tel Aviv under attack from rockets fired from Rafah in Gaza

Tel Aviv has come under attack with at least eight rockets fired towards central Israel on Sunday originating from Gaza 's far-southern city of Rafah, the Israeli military has confirmed.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13461325/Tel-Aviv-attack-eight-rockets-fired-Rafah-Gaza.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
HelenHen · 31/05/2024 00:20

DownNative · 30/05/2024 20:50

The issue being challenged was youngones deliberate blurring of hostages and prisoners in order to wrongly create an equivalence between them.

Do you accept that a hostage and a prisoner are NOT the same things?

That the two should not be wrongly equated?

That's the issue being challenged.

'The issue being challenged'? By whom?

You are deliberately focusing on 'legalities' because you know your argument does NOT stand morally. Sure, if we ONLY focus on legalities I'm sure we can all find a law somewhere to support our opinion. But we must also question those legalities... the fairness of them... who they apply to... whether they stand up to moral scrutiny... whether they're even legal at all.

Yes, morals and emotion matter!

DownNative · 31/05/2024 01:32

HelenHen · 31/05/2024 00:20

'The issue being challenged'? By whom?

You are deliberately focusing on 'legalities' because you know your argument does NOT stand morally. Sure, if we ONLY focus on legalities I'm sure we can all find a law somewhere to support our opinion. But we must also question those legalities... the fairness of them... who they apply to... whether they stand up to moral scrutiny... whether they're even legal at all.

Yes, morals and emotion matter!

Are you trying to suggest that the current definitions of hostages and prisoners under International Humanitarian Law is somehow illegal?

It is entirely appropriate to refer to what IHL says about hostages and prisoners, especially when someone attempts to blur the lines often in an emotionally manipulative way.

Youngones was wrong to deliberately blur the two. The law, international and domestic, is clear on that.

Law is the regulation of people's behaviour and actions. That matters whether you agree with the rule of law or not.

I, for one, am in favour of the rule of law. Not the rule of emotions and it must be said that emotions doesn't make someone or something more virtuous than another.

You seem to be attempting to deflect away from law because you know you don't really have an argument that stands. 🤷‍♂️

Scirocco · 31/05/2024 05:22

There is a substantial body of independent expert opinion that the practices used to detain many Palestinians are contrary to international law. For example, the use of administrative detention is for emergencies, and people detained should have access to a fair hearing. As I posted above, there are different thresholds and practices for Israeli and Palestinian civilians (including children) and these have raised concerns too, particularly in relation to how Palestinian children can be detained, 'processed' and treated post-conviction.

Given the decades' worth of concerns regarding torture and coercion (not acceptable under international law), there are questions regarding the reliability of any confessions or 'evidence' obtained through questioning.

There have been arguments made that contributing motivating factors for the high rates of detention and conviction of Palestinian civilians include: that a precedent was set for a high 'exchange rate' in hostage negotiations; and that the Palestinian population know that their detained loved ones will experience repercussions in the event of unrest or rebellion.

These are some reasons why some people describe Palestinian detainees in Israeli prisons as political prisoners and even hostages.

http://www.btselem.org/publications/summaries/200910_without_trial

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/#:~:text=Administrative%20detention%20is%20a%20form,their%20liberty%20under%20international%20law.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/10/un-expert-calls-israel-end-practice-administrative-detention-and-immediately

Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests  

Israeli authorities have dramatically increased their use of administrative detention, a form of arbitrary detention, of Palestinians across the occupied West Bank; extended emergency measures that facilitate inhuman and degrading treatment of prisoner...

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests#:~:text=Administrative%20detention%20is%20a%20form,their%20liberty%20under%20international%20law.

AhNowTed · 31/05/2024 07:43

Kindatired · 30/05/2024 21:02

So @DownNative , what are your feelings about internment in Northern Ireland?

Good question.

The so-called "prisoners", many of whom are children, have been neither charged, tried nor convicted of any offence.

Some are incarcerated for decades.

Let's not pretend otherwise.

HelenHen · 31/05/2024 08:35

DownNative · 31/05/2024 01:32

Are you trying to suggest that the current definitions of hostages and prisoners under International Humanitarian Law is somehow illegal?

It is entirely appropriate to refer to what IHL says about hostages and prisoners, especially when someone attempts to blur the lines often in an emotionally manipulative way.

Youngones was wrong to deliberately blur the two. The law, international and domestic, is clear on that.

Law is the regulation of people's behaviour and actions. That matters whether you agree with the rule of law or not.

I, for one, am in favour of the rule of law. Not the rule of emotions and it must be said that emotions doesn't make someone or something more virtuous than another.

You seem to be attempting to deflect away from law because you know you don't really have an argument that stands. 🤷‍♂️

Laws are questioned, changed and updated all the time. You seem to think that, because something is written in law, it should not be questioned?

If someone is detained for an indefinite period without trial, without adequate representation and communication, their families have every right to argue that it is no different to a hostage situation.

Cadela · 31/05/2024 15:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Auvergne63 · 31/05/2024 15:38

DownNative · 31/05/2024 01:32

Are you trying to suggest that the current definitions of hostages and prisoners under International Humanitarian Law is somehow illegal?

It is entirely appropriate to refer to what IHL says about hostages and prisoners, especially when someone attempts to blur the lines often in an emotionally manipulative way.

Youngones was wrong to deliberately blur the two. The law, international and domestic, is clear on that.

Law is the regulation of people's behaviour and actions. That matters whether you agree with the rule of law or not.

I, for one, am in favour of the rule of law. Not the rule of emotions and it must be said that emotions doesn't make someone or something more virtuous than another.

You seem to be attempting to deflect away from law because you know you don't really have an argument that stands. 🤷‍♂️

I, for one, am in favour of the rule of law.
Great! As the Israeli government is ignoring the rule of law on a daily basis, you obviously condemn their actions in Gaza, don't you?
I am also in favour of rule of law and I vehemently condemn their actions, as you should.

DownNative · 04/06/2024 15:25

newmomaboutthreads · 30/05/2024 08:21

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.
One man's government leader is another man's genocidal dictator.

If you believe that 'one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter', then you are arguing that something being terrorism is really just a matter of opinion.

One perspective with a claimed equal opposite perspective. This kind of thinking easily gives rise to False Balance aka bothsidesism, False Equivalence, False Dichotomy and so on. These are logical fallacies.

If 'terrorism' is, as you say, really just a matter of opinion, then your attempted cliched statement about a government leader being a "another man's genocidal dictator" is just an expression of opinion. If it's just an opinion, then other opinions are available and just as valid.

So, what is the view of various Sovereign Governments, European Union and courts on Hamas?

Since 2001, the Council of the European Union has adopted a common position and a regulation to combat terrorism.

In 2014 after Hamas contested their designation as a terrorist organisation, the EU's General Court found the EU's terrorist designation had been "based not on acts examined and confirmed in decisions of competent authorities but on factual imputations derived from the press and the internet". Furthermore, the General Court asserted that, "The court stresses that those annulments, on fundamental procedural grounds, do not imply any substantive assessment of the question of the classification of Hamas as a terrorist group within the meaning of the common position."

Unsurprisingly, Hamas took this as validation of their own acts of terrorism which they claim was supported under international law as "resistance".

In 2019, the European Court of Justice overturned the ruling of the General Court. The ECJ asserted below:

"The Court of Justice, sitting as the Grand Chamber, sets aside the judgment of the General Court of 4 September 2019. It finds that the General Court erred in law in ruling that the statements of reasons relating to the retention of Hamas on the lists annexed to the acts at issue should – in the same way as the acts themselves, which contain a general statement of reasons – have been signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council. In addition, those statements of reasons were adopted by the Council simultaneously with those acts, to which they were inseparably attached, and their authenticity has not been validly challenged."

And:

"...that the Council produced documents demonstrating that the statements of reasons were adopted simultaneously with the acts at issue signed by the President and the Secretary-General of the Council, to which they were inseparably attached, and that Hamas has not put forward any evidence that could call into question the fact that the text of the statements of reasons that were notified to it and the text adopted by the Council correspond perfectly. Since the authenticity of those statements of reasons has not been validly challenged by Hamas, the Court concludes that the action brought by Hamas must be dismissed in its entirety."

So, the European Union was AND remains correct to designate Hamas NOT as a so-called "resistance movement", but as a TERRORIST organisation. Especially since Hamas did NOT argue against the authenticity of the CoE's statements of reason that led to this designation in the first place!

That leads us to the designation of Hamas as a terrorist organisation by, aside from the EU, Sovereign States such as the United States, United Kingdom, Australia, Paraguay, New Zealand, Canada, Argentina and others.

It surprises nobody that Israel designates Hamas as a terrorist organisation as well.

In 2023, "The United States welcomes Germany’s decision to ban activities supporting Hamas" and asserted that "Hamas is a dangerous terrorist organization, which engages in barbaric actions and has compounded and perpetuated the suffering of the Palestinian people at every step of this crisis".

And:

"Authorities in Germany's most populous state, North Rhine-Westphalia, have outlawed a Palestinian organization that promotes Hamas and calls for the eradication of Israel on Thursday".17 May 2024

In the United States, the so-called "charity" Holy Land Foundation For Relief and Development was accused of funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas. On 24th November 2008, their five leaders were convicted of 108 counts. Other so-called charities including Holy Land Foundation (HLF), Islamic Association for Palestine (IAP), and Kind Hearts were also shutdown by United States authorities for funding a terrorist organisation - Hamas.

The "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" slogan implicitly holds (paradoxically) that ‘terrorism’ is inherently bad while ‘freedom fighting’ is good, and that labelling an act freedom fighting precludes it from also being viewed as terrorism. Making it a nonsensical statement, naturally, whilst serving as motivation for terrorist groups to manipulate as many people as possible to believe they're not terrorists.

But it is supporters of terrorist organisations themselves, their fellow travellers and their sneaking regarders who actively attempt to push that flawed cliché. Usually to people who have not had to think very much, if at all, about the problem of terrorism.

Hence, websites have a legal duty and requirement to observe the law. That means passing information on to the relevant authorities, deleting comments and, yes, banning accounts who attempt to push support for terrorist groups, explicitly and/or implicitly, overtly and/or covertly.

It would seem that some advocates of the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" school of thought have a bit of a problem.

As Randy Borum, Directors of Psychology of Terrorism Initiative said:

"When we abandon the cliché that one person’s terrorist is the other’s freedom fighter, we can better understand (or adopt) Jenkin’s definition that: “One man’s terrorist is everyone’s terrorist”.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 15:42

It is easy to see how Hamas would be designated a terrorist organisation by certain countries, but less easy to see how certain Israeli governments and militias, who have used their power to terrorise another weaker group over decades, are certainly terroristic too.

They are only not called terrorists because they are part of a powerful state.

DownNative · 04/06/2024 15:47

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 15:42

It is easy to see how Hamas would be designated a terrorist organisation by certain countries, but less easy to see how certain Israeli governments and militias, who have used their power to terrorise another weaker group over decades, are certainly terroristic too.

They are only not called terrorists because they are part of a powerful state.

And Whataboutery is the last refuge of those who shout "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" guff as well, i.e. accusation of State terrorism which doesn't even deal with the original argument being made!

So, the argument against "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" still stands. 👍

Tel Aviv under attack from at least eight rockets fired from Rafah in Gaza
ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 16:23

DownNative · 04/06/2024 15:47

And Whataboutery is the last refuge of those who shout "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" guff as well, i.e. accusation of State terrorism which doesn't even deal with the original argument being made!

So, the argument against "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" still stands. 👍

All I know is that a child being arrested in the night after a group of soldiers have entered their house to grab them would feel terrorised … and so on.

Call it whatever you want.

DownNative · 04/06/2024 16:32

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 16:23

All I know is that a child being arrested in the night after a group of soldiers have entered their house to grab them would feel terrorised … and so on.

Call it whatever you want.

Cheers for showing everyone how you couldn't argue against the argument that the "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" cliché is rooted in logical fallacies.

Including the argument against it being mere opinion.

Whataboutery is a logical fallacy in response to my argument. 🤷‍♂️

FYI, acts of terrorism is not about feeling terrorised per se.

BelleHathor · 04/06/2024 17:23

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 15:42

It is easy to see how Hamas would be designated a terrorist organisation by certain countries, but less easy to see how certain Israeli governments and militias, who have used their power to terrorise another weaker group over decades, are certainly terroristic too.

They are only not called terrorists because they are part of a powerful state.

I agree, especially seeing as the whole foundation of Israel came about through terrorism carried out by groups such as the Stern Gang, the Haganah, the Irgun and the Lehi, most famously through the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 which killed 91 people.

The countries that designate Hamas as a terrorist organisation are mostly also the architects of Colonialism and their vassals.
They've also had no problem collaborating with terrorist groups when it's geopolitically advantageous (aka. Arming the Mujahideen to weaken the Soviets).

China, which is one of the Great Powers does not designate Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

So it's complicated and what this has highlighted is the vast hypocrisy.

DownNative · 04/06/2024 17:41

BelleHathor · 04/06/2024 17:23

I agree, especially seeing as the whole foundation of Israel came about through terrorism carried out by groups such as the Stern Gang, the Haganah, the Irgun and the Lehi, most famously through the bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946 which killed 91 people.

The countries that designate Hamas as a terrorist organisation are mostly also the architects of Colonialism and their vassals.
They've also had no problem collaborating with terrorist groups when it's geopolitically advantageous (aka. Arming the Mujahideen to weaken the Soviets).

China, which is one of the Great Powers does not designate Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

So it's complicated and what this has highlighted is the vast hypocrisy.

And.....absolutely none of that actually refutes my argument refuting the poster who chose to make the cliché rooted in logical fallacies.

Whataboutery at its finest! 🙈

On top of that, you attempt to use the Tu Quoque Fallacy.

What's more revealing is how quickly some want to quickly deflect AWAY from Hamas being a terrorist organisation to focus on certain Sovereign States.

What that looks like to me is sneaking regarder behaviour. 🧐

When it comes to Hamas being a terrorist organisation, there shouldn't be any equivocation, no "but...." or anything else.

There should only be a straightforward acceptance that Hamas actually IS a terrorist organisation.

Hamas absolutely is part of an international terrorist network with the Islamic Republic of Iran right at the centre!

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 18:18

I think Hamas forfeited their potential status as being purely resistance fighters because on Oct 7 the majority by far of their victims were civilians -including children, massacred, raped, captured.

I also think Israel has behaved like an over powering terrorist state towards Palestinians and that they have been slaughtering Palestinian civilians including children by the thousands.

DownNative · 04/06/2024 18:29

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 18:18

I think Hamas forfeited their potential status as being purely resistance fighters because on Oct 7 the majority by far of their victims were civilians -including children, massacred, raped, captured.

I also think Israel has behaved like an over powering terrorist state towards Palestinians and that they have been slaughtering Palestinian civilians including children by the thousands.

So...you think Hamas wasn't a terrorist organisation BEFORE 7th October 2023? 🧐

I'm afraid they were.

Oofft!

The Whataboutery is still strong in you. Always revealing to see the immediate deflection from Hamas onto Sovereign States.....

Kindatired · 04/06/2024 19:15

I think we are agreed that Hamas are terrorists- their actions speak for themselves. But many of those incarcerated in Israeli jails are suspected terrorists, some detained without trial, some tried in military courts with conviction rates of 100%.
Some seem to be teenagers who threw stones without proven intent to kill or injure. The Israeli justice minister said in 2015 when she raised the penalty for stone throwing stones without proven intent to kill or injure to 10 years, 20 years if harmful intent.” A stone thrower is a terrorist, and only an appropriate punishment can be deterrent, punitive and just,”
Stone throwing by boys has been traditional in the Holy Land since the time of David, so there are a lot of kids interned without trial on “administrative detention “.
Here is an article from El Pais November 2023.
https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-11-23/supporting-terrorism-throwing-stones-the-accusations-against-palestinians-to-be-freed-in-israel-hamas-deal.html#
In fact if you wanted to turn a disaffected stroppy teenage boy into a proper terrorist, administrative detention would be a good starting point- Mr Sinwar himself has described using prison as an academy.

Supporting terrorism, throwing stones: The accusations against Palestinians to be freed in Israel-Hamas deal

Most of the prisoners who will be released in exchange for Israeli hostages are teenagers facing ambiguous allegations or being held without charges in ‘administrative detention’

https://english.elpais.com/international/2023-11-23/supporting-terrorism-throwing-stones-the-accusations-against-palestinians-to-be-freed-in-israel-hamas-deal.html#

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 19:19

DownNative · 04/06/2024 18:29

So...you think Hamas wasn't a terrorist organisation BEFORE 7th October 2023? 🧐

I'm afraid they were.

Oofft!

The Whataboutery is still strong in you. Always revealing to see the immediate deflection from Hamas onto Sovereign States.....

I know that the IDF inflicted misery and terror on Palestinians, including killing them, before Oct 7 and that the power was in their hands.

I am not interested in your whataboutery accusations. You have a neat handle to use, to deflect from
whatishappening at the hands of the IDF and this government.

Since Oct 7 there has been ample revenge. Whatever evil Hamas did Oct 7, and evil and mad they were imo, the IDF has multiplied many times over by their own powerful methods of modern weaponery.

Before this war I had no idea what some in Israel were getting up to against Palestinians. I generally trusted the Israeli government. No more. I think some of the characters like Smotrich, Ben-Givr, are cheering on thugs and killers themselves.

DownNative · 04/06/2024 19:31

ScrollingLeaves · 04/06/2024 19:19

I know that the IDF inflicted misery and terror on Palestinians, including killing them, before Oct 7 and that the power was in their hands.

I am not interested in your whataboutery accusations. You have a neat handle to use, to deflect from
whatishappening at the hands of the IDF and this government.

Since Oct 7 there has been ample revenge. Whatever evil Hamas did Oct 7, and evil and mad they were imo, the IDF has multiplied many times over by their own powerful methods of modern weaponery.

Before this war I had no idea what some in Israel were getting up to against Palestinians. I generally trusted the Israeli government. No more. I think some of the characters like Smotrich, Ben-Givr, are cheering on thugs and killers themselves.

"I am not interested in your whataboutery accusations. You have a neat handle to use, to deflect from
whatishappening at the hands of the IDF and this government."

Oh, believe me, I'm well aware you're not interested! 🤣

However, that doesn't actually change anything as your very quick reaction was to deflect AWAY from Hamas' status as a terrorist organisation.

It also means you're not addressing the refutation of the original argument in your own responses.

Whataboutery IS a logical fallacy and that means an error in reasoning and logic. So no, my being very aware of YOUR own behaviour, i.e., Whataboutery, is not a "neat handle" or s deflection tactic. I directly AND very clearly refuted the poster in question's use of the aforementioned terrorist cliché.

So, I think we can all take it from your response here is you don't think Hamas was a terrorist organisation BEFORE 7th October 2023.

Oofft.....

The speed AND willingness to completely deflect away from Hamas as a terrorist organisation is suspect sneaking regarder behaviour.

At this point, I will once again remind people that it IS illegal to express support for terrorist groups.

Even if you do so as covertly as you can.

Poor show.

AhNowTed · 04/06/2024 19:43

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

And yesterday's terrorists can, and have become tomorrow's heads of state.

BelleHathor · 04/06/2024 19:46

AhNowTed · 04/06/2024 19:43

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

And yesterday's terrorists can, and have become tomorrow's heads of state.

Shhh, you'll be accused of Whataboutery and deflection.

Humdingerydoo · 04/06/2024 20:14

AhNowTed · 04/06/2024 19:43

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

And yesterday's terrorists can, and have become tomorrow's heads of state.

Nice little soundbite. Shame there's no actual substance behind what you're saying. Don't let that stop you from saying something that sounds cool though.

AhNowTed · 04/06/2024 20:26

Humdingerydoo · 04/06/2024 20:14

Nice little soundbite. Shame there's no actual substance behind what you're saying. Don't let that stop you from saying something that sounds cool though.

No substance?

Nelson Mandela
Martin McGuinness (albeit Deputy)

Humdingerydoo · 04/06/2024 20:30

AhNowTed · 04/06/2024 20:26

No substance?

Nelson Mandela
Martin McGuinness (albeit Deputy)

Ah ok. My apologies. Thought you were trying to be funny about Israel.

If you're happy to live in a world where Sinwar and his likes are a head of state then good luck to you. I thought we could all agree Hamas were scum of the earth, but I guess maybe not?

AhNowTed · 04/06/2024 20:46

Humdingerydoo · 04/06/2024 20:30

Ah ok. My apologies. Thought you were trying to be funny about Israel.

If you're happy to live in a world where Sinwar and his likes are a head of state then good luck to you. I thought we could all agree Hamas were scum of the earth, but I guess maybe not?

No I'm not being funny about anything, honestly.

But simple black and white, good and bad characterizations are unhelpful and inadequate, when we are talking about thousands of innocent lives.

It's not that simple.

Yes, Hamas is a terrorist group. But does that make Israel the good guys. No of course not.

And simply saying "terrorist", as a means to shout down all reasonable opposition to what is happening in Gaza is a tragedy.

And before any pile on - yes Oct 7th was an atrocity.

But so is the killing of Palestinians every day in the West Bank, prior to Oct 7th, and in the West Bank and Gaza since.

Swipe left for the next trending thread