"Brilliant moment pro-Israel protesters get their own back on pro-Palestine mob"

[keenforhelp]

Pro-Israel supporters have taken to the streets after a cinema was vandalised with graffiti for planning to show a film about the Nova festival massacre at the hands of Hamas terrorists.

Pro-Palestine activists sprayed the Phoenix Cinema in East Finchley, London, with the message "say no to artwashing". In response, members of the Jewish community and campaigners against anti-Semitism are holding a demonstration outside the picturehouse.
Music could be heard blaring, including Elton John's I'm Still Standing, as smiling pro-Israel supporters waved the Israeli flag in a show of defiance.
A tiny band of pro-Palestine protesters are on the scene, however they are vastly outnumbered.

The volunteer, who wished to remain anonymous, told The Telegraph: “It’s just an outrage. People who are survivors of this massacre are coming here and they could have been confronted with red graffiti that honestly looked like blood.
“One of the people here knows someone who survived the massacre and she was coming tonight. Imagine the trauma if she saw this. People from the community have gone together to clean it up.
“It claimed that the film was artwashing - but it’s not. It’s footage from the festival. It shows what happened. There’s no agenda.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1902945/phoenix-cinema-finchley-israel-protest

vocabulary lesson of the day
https://www.merriam-webster.com/news-trend-watch/obama-it-behooves-me-to-be-very-brief-20170120

It’s interesting to see how much some people will argue that the Israeli
government are more moral than Hamas.

Both are depraved.

The only noble cause is the one which aims to ensure peace and security for all of the people in Israel and Palestine.

The survival of Israel and the survival of Palestine don’t need to be diametrically opposed.

It is all this extreme excessive anger and hate that @Limesodaagain likes to talk about which has been partly responsible for people believing the survival of one side is mutually exclusive to eachother, and led each side to believe that their deprave acts are justified by the results of their cause.

If you had read it properly, it states the limitations of that. It IS limited which means Hamas has breached IHL in every way possible from the hostage taking to indiscriminate attacks on civilians.

The intention of terrorist groups IS to deliberately attack and murder civilians in order to coerce governments to do what they want.

This is not equivalent to the counter-terrorism of Sovereign Powers.

Additional Protocol I also requires that "such armed forces shall be subject to an internal disciplinary system which, inter alia, shall enforce compliance with the rules of international law applicable in armed conflict”.

So, Hamas is solely responsible for their members complying with IHL. And for their failure to do so.

As John Spencer, chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute (MWI) at West Point, codirector of MWI's Urban Warfare Project and host of the "Urban Warfare Project Podcast", stated very recently:

"Hamas knows the laws of war, it knows the public sensitivity, and it exploits those to both hamper the IDF's actions and invite international condemnation."

Finally, resistance doesn't have to take the path of using weapons which is often a counterproductive way to achieve a particular goal. Other non-violent methods are available and can often work better in the long run.

But the problem really becomes intractable when a terrorist group engages in terrorism which then forces a counter-terrorism response from Sovereign Powers.

A vicious cycle is then created which also means a peace process cannot achieve the goal of peace without a successful security management of the problem of violence. That might seem counterintuitive, but that's the practical reality.

Who is going to manage the security problem of Israel in Gaza then? And take over the Israeli mismanagement of the security threat that is caused by Hamas?

Probably nobody, not at least until all the fighting stops.

The fighting doesn't have to stop in order to facilitate a peace process, but the security effort runs in tandem. They are not separate from each other although many appear to believe otherwise.

The key moment will come when one side is degraded enough to the point where it cannot mount and/or sustain significant attacks.

But demilitarisation within Palestinian areas will be a condition as indicated by ME powers, e.g. Egypt.

Israel’s response (govt) is not successfully managing security, it is breaking international law by decimating health services, creating man made malnutrition and disproportionately and indiscriminately killing civilians. Gaza is in ruins and the majority of the general population are internally displaced, traumatised and living in inhumane conditions. Not only are many members of Hamas still active, the response is sowing seeds of hate for Israel and creating the terrorists of tomorrow. The state of Israel is being investigated by the ICJ for potential genocide and the ICC are seeking to issue arrest warrants for Netanyahu, who has also been through his departments been trying to influence the legal process through intimidation. The response has the potential to destabilise the Middle East and countries world wide are pissed off with each other.

The response has not increased security. It has not been measured or effective. It has been running in tandem with genocidal messages delivered by members of the Israeli government. It is an absolute balls up.

I should not forget the hostages, I know that people can feel like they are forgotten. Many of the hostages are still in Gaza and the destruction of Gaza has not brought them any closer to being back home.

@Tienne MN deleted that anti-Semitic post that the previous poster made and then said my feelings that it was anti- Semitic was an example of DARVO which is very inflammatory as you well know . It IS anti-Semitic to conflate or say things like Israel is killing when it is the Govt and military involved in the operations.

You say that Gaza is not a state but lots of countries recognise it now as you well know but it suits you to say it is a land mass on this occasion to refute my argument.

Your reference to the political position being tricky (definitely difficult) is actually very timely!

See the attachments.

At the very least, that should cause Westerners pause for concern as well as food for thought as its a factor to consider. Foreign State interference such as Iran is, unfortunately, a worrying reality in the 21st Century.

As you rightly point out and caution against, certain types of behaviour could harm us in the West. And there should be far more wariness about causing further division in the West too.

In the United States, a report entitled “Dangerous by Design" by the Council for Responsible Social Media (CRSM) details the "widespread and ongoing threats and harms that social media companies are causing to kids, national security, and democracy."

European authorities and researchers also have much the same concerns.

As I said earlier, you made some very important points in such a concise, clear and eloquent manner. Enjoyed reading that - again!

@keenforhelp iv noticed that some news outlets report it as the 'Israel-Hamas war' or conflict
I didn't realise saying so is Anti-Semitic

See below from CNN as an example

@keenforhelp and this was the headline of the latest update

Hamas tells mediators that if Israel stops war in Gaza, it's possible all the hostages could be released

It doesn't say Israeli government or IDF. And this is across many news outlets. But at no point would I read any of that and think they must be referring to the whole of Israeli society when they say 'Israel' in their everyday reporting instead of the 'Israeli government'

It's the State Of Palestine that's recognised by something like 143 Sovereign States which includes Gaza and West Bank.

Indeed, the United Nations recognised State Of Palestine as enough of a State to become a member - "....Article 4 of the Charter of the United Nations and should, therefore, be admitted to membership in the Organization."

Not merely a "land area".

I understand the sentiment behind this post but as highlighted above, this is how it is mostly reported.

And I don't believe all these news channels are anti-semitic. Least of all CNN.

When talking about people killed in the Iraq war for example, it would be said during the war 'America killed...... not the American army killed...

"But I've never argued Hamas are going about their resistance the 'right way'..."

Look back over the last page or two and you'll find your posts deleted. Mumsnet took a very different view of a string of your posts.

"....again that doesn't disqualify them or other Palestinians to a right to armed resistance against occupation."

Except it does as explained previously. See attachment which explains it very well.

Right to resist is not an absolute right. Its a qualified, conditional one. Violate the conditions and it becomes disqualified which is what a terrorist group does.

Sneaking regardism isn't a good look for you.

My issue with your words is that your basicly saying two wrongs make a right, on a repeated loop. Your on the one hand saying hamas are bad but then saying so are Israel, so its partially justified or less bad as they killed less. One life is to many. You describe terrorism as a regrettable consequence in one post, like its an unfortunate side effect of illegal occupation, it isn't its a choice to do the wrong thing an unforgivable and inhumane choice that robs innocent people of their lives.

There is absolutely nothing noble about killing innocent and powerless people to achieve a political aim. The second someone has killed even one person in this manor they have lost their humanity and no amount of land or power will return that humanity and I actually fear for the people living on that land with people who made the decision to kill innocents in charge.

There are many wrongs that are being committed in this conflict but none are understandable or justifiable. Jesus told us to turn the other cheek, when we are wronged. He was telling us that returning what is done to us does not solve anything and only leads to escalation, hatred and more violence.

Lives are worth alot more than land and that needs to be realised very quickly. Both people's can have lands and this needless loss of lives will stop, with humane leadership in both States. God made this land as a home for especially for us his children, he did not make his children for this land. He values life over land and so should we.

The endless loop of retribution and anger will only bring more death and more destruction. It's been 70 years how many more years, more innocent lives lost, until an appetite for peace can be found?

Both spellings are correct so there's no need to be snarky about it.

I think snarkiness is the least of the problems on this thread really isn’t it

Such a strange reaction to something so trivial, that you were actually wrong about, still managed to stand out.

Gaza is not recognised as a state
Israel is a state
The US is a state
PALESTINE is recognized as a state by some

It is not antisemitic to same a state is doing something

incorrect

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/behoove

Gaza is not a state. Palestine is a recognised state by the majority of countries of the world

Indeed, it is perfectly legit for Palestinians combatants to fight security forces of Israel.

This in itself is not a warcrime.

SO when you hear the label "terrorist" know it is largely untrue when applied to such activity.