New Hamas video of hostages

[Muthaofcats]

The new Hamas video released today of the female hostages selected as the ones they planned to get pregnant was so sickening and I wish I hadn’t seen it.

however, I am also wondering WHY it has not been more widely picked up and broadcast? I don’t understand the silence from the bleeding left; why don’t they see stuff like this and not just feel desperate and sick about those poor poor girls and their families who must be beyond devastated.

Watching the men in those videos helps to counter balance the idea of Israel as the aggressor. I wish more would see it and reflect or even just place those women of equal value to those in Gaza.

How is the world so perverse right now that this warrants a shrug from so many? Or worse, is viewed as justified !?

What do you mean, I "always claim innocence"?

Yes, I've had quite a few posts deleted. That resulted in my account being suspended for a week. It seemed very unfair at the time as I felt misunderstood, but that's just the nature of social media I guess.

I have deleted my account more than once in frustration.

There has been countless posts and many contributions on news programmes I've watched making suggestions on
how Israel could legitimately have responded to 7 October. The Americans even offered their expertise in the beginning to support and advise Israel, this offer was declined.
Even if Israel didn't agree with the military tactics suggested why did they need to limit and block humanitarian aid?

What do you mean, I "always claim innocence"?

You said upthread you felt it was due to censorship and anti-semitism. What I meant by claiming innocence was that you don't seem to think there might be something wrong with what you're saying and how some may view it as offensive. In my experience mumsnet only delete if it has broken their talk guidelines

I appreciate your answer! 😊

I think we just have to agree to disagree on this. I don't think Hamas are the least bit interested in negotiating peace. It's actually the exact opposite of their stated intentions, unfortunately.

I do dearly wish this was possible- despite my earlier post. But everything is so very raw . I think all those involved in the most heinous atrocities ( Oct 7th / Hind/ the murder of aid workers) must be held to account. You can compromise with more moderate people but not the extremists

Well, we sort of had this conversation earlier in the thread about this when I used a word that I didn't know was offensive and my post was deleted. I made enquiries as to why, learned something useful, and apologised.

Yes, I "claim innocence" in the sense that I am sincerely trying to talk things through in good faith. What makes you think I am not?

It is very annoying to have posts deleted rather than challenged. It's always more productive to be given a chance to explain and/or learn.

I am glad you admit that Hamas do not respect human rights.

Elsewhere you state that what you want is a ceasefire from Israel. You might as well say that you want Israel to be sitting ducks for the terrorists for Hamas because experience shows they do not respect ceasefires.

You also suggest that you “want investigations into what appear to be war crimes”. When action has been taken against Hamas and their supporters for murder, using civilians as human shields, human rights abuses and terrorist war crimes, intention to commit genocide, their general fascism etc, then maybe we will see about investigating Israel for crimes allegedly committed whilst it defends itself. Because quite frankly, it is Hamas who are committing “some of worst acts we've ever seen”, isn’t it?

You as a doctor surely realise that it is Hamas who are creating the shocking conditions for their own citizens who used be able to go to Israel for medical treatment. But this unfortunately became difficult.

For example in 2005, Wafa Samir Ibrahim al-Biss, a 21-year-old woman from Gaza was provided with a multi-entry permit to receive care in Israel for multiple burns caused by a home gas explosion. She was stopped at a Gaza border checkpoint with 10 kilograms of explosives hidden in her underwear. Although al-Biss had been cared for on many occasions by staff at Soroka Hospital she said: “I wanted to blow myself up in the hospital. Maybe even in the one I was treated. . . . I wanted to kill 20, 50 Jews.”

That is deeply tragic, but it is not the fault of Israel. And this is who Israel is dealing with as a neighbour.

I'll answer - pretty sure I have answered before too.

They could use a lot more targeted operations against Hamas, like the ones they have successfully used in Iran and Syria. They have admitted they are not being precision in their response and they should be. That would be a way to minimise civilian casualties.

They could use more ground operations to clear and destroy the tunnels. Then they could refrain from using 200lb bombs to get to the tunnels, in inhabited areas where they know there are lots of civilians. These bombs are designed for maximum damage.

They could provide some refugee space outside the Gaza border for refugees to go into - they would know there are no tunnels there and could have more control over the people moving there across the border, so no need to attack the refugee camps. It would protect civilians and enable the IDF to operate in Gaza more easily with less risk as fewer people are there.

Finally they could comply with basic rules of law and allow food/water/medical treatment into Gaza so people aren't living in a man made famine. There is no excuse for that at all imo - it is barbaric in the 21st century.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-69055989

The UN have just demanded an immediate halt to Israeli operations in Rafah so clearly they also think there are better options

Ireland is another country, its location being in the United Kingdom makes absolutely no difference. There were negotiations and the similarities between the problems that Ireland and England faced are strikingly similar to the palastine and Israel issue.

When there is an appetite for peace there will be peace, until that time countless people on all sides will suffer at the hands of this issue. Is land worth more than lives? I don't think so, others do on both sides and until that stops more people will suffer.

Shame it won't make a bit of difference, however its symbolic more than anything so I'm still glad it's happened.

Whilst this might be true, should 15000 children be sacrificed to change it? There's no better way to get rid of Hamas?

No amount of its all Hama's fault is going to change the fact that this mission to clear them out could have been done within the realms of international law.

If evidence is found to convict both sides of genocide they should be convicted.

Mummy2024 How is it going to be done 'within the reasons of international law'? Seriously 😒.
Hamas is hanging on to the remaining 100+ hostages for dear life. If they released them today Israel would have to lay down their arms. Hamas is happy to continue the war at the expense of Palestinian civilians.

Anyone carrying a placard that says that can and should be arrested so presumably they are being....

They aren't. The police aren't bothered.

They can enter in full force. By full force i mean mandatory enlistment (population wide) stop shooting and bombing indiscriminately which is against international law. Stop the seige and allow in food and water. Use precision munitions instead of massive bombs.

"There was no other way" isn't a reasonable excuse for a genocide and denying people food, water and medicine amounts to genocide.

What is abundantly clear is that hamas do not have the operational ability to invade Israel. They have even less capability now, which is a very good thing.

Therefore a ceasefire is exceedingly unlikely to allow an attack on Israel and even if it does Isreal has the capability and allies needed to repel any attempt at lightning speed.

So the if we stop they will attack us excuse just doesn't ring true to me.

Israel won't commit to stopping if the hostages are released from what I understand?, has it been said that they will?

I am a SA survivor and what Hamas did on the 07/10 can never be excused.
I also think that these young women deserved an explanation to:
why their concerns about a possible attack were repeatedly dismissed by their superiors.
why the Egyptian warning was also ignored.
why it took so long for the Israeli Defence Force to come to their rescue.
I think it is legitimate to ask these questions of the Israeli government but, so far, Netanyahu has refused to answer them or face the hostages family, who have been subjected to heavy handed policing when protesting.
Israel was warned Hamas was planning a major attack. It was ignored. - The Washington Post
Why Israel's Police Are Ramping Up Violence Against the Families of Hostages - Haaretz Today - Haaretz.com
I abhor the violence against the Israelis on 07/10 as much as I abhor what has been happening in Gaza since that fatal day.
Both Hamas and the Israeli government are, in my eyes, guilty of war crimes and extreme cruelty.
I expect nothing less from Hamas but the Israeli government's actions should not be excused either.

Obviously you have miss Netanyahu stating that he will not stop, even if the hostages are released.

It's pretty clear that their intentions are not solely out of concern for the hostages but also to ensure no one ever forgets that it's actually all Israel's fault

As by you were referring to my intentions as you see them, I shall answer
@Humdingerydoo.

You are taking it upon yourself to decide my motives and with the slant that I am attacking ‘Israel’.

Who is the Israel you are talking about? It took particular individuals and a State leader to ignore the surveillance soldiers’ warnings. Are you saying these individuals and State leader are representative of all Israelis ? Aren’t we told they are not?

There are other Israeli individuals and other potential Israeli State leaders who would not have ignored them.

These girls are themselves Israel, and I am hardly saying it is their fault. Are you implying their Israeli-ness does not count?

They did their highly stressful
job with dedication and full attention. They were Israeli heroes.

Do I accuse the men who ignored them? Yes, of course I do. One of the girls has actually said that had they been men, not women, they’d have been listened to

Do I accuse a system that left them undefended and alone after what they’d been seeing and warning about? Yes.

What do you think their (Israeli) parents think of their superiors doing this?

Do I accuse the IDF for sending those others who survived slaughter or capture back to the same posts, traumatised though they were. Yes.

Do I think Netanyahu is avoiding answering a lot about this and Oct 7? Yes. So do Israeli people.

My posts about these young female surveillance soldier hostages might better be on the feminist board where people would understand the depths of awfulness they went through better

• how their very intelligence and perspicacity regarding Israel’s security was rendered voiceless by their own, because they are women; as well as, how they were captured, imprisoned and probably raped, because they are women -

and also understand how impugning those involved has nothing to do with blaming Israel the entity.

But then ordinary lurkers who are concerned about this war might not see who these girls really were, and what happened to them, beyond their being tragic Hamas hostages and likely rape victims.

Even on this thread several posters have needed to ask if they were soldiers. Not everyone would know the nature of their job, that they were all female, that they were alone there, they were not all armed…. and the rest.

If these young, female conscripts had been say, Ukrainian, American, British, or anyone else, I’d think what happened to them was indefensible on all counts, and certainly a story that needs telling on a thread dedicated to them.

Admit it? You'd have to be living under a rock to have missed it. You might as well say you're glad I admit the sky is blue.

When people say Ceasefire, that does not mean unilateral cessation of hostilities. A ceasefire applies to all parties. A ceasefire means getting the hostages home. It means getting aid in. It can mean a framework for peace rather than a slide further into destruction and hate. Negotiations are the best hope for stabilising the region. That does not mean leaving Hamas in power.

The atrocities of October 7th, and other acts by Hamas over the years are horrendous. Part of any justice process must involve holding perpetrators and organisers to account. I've posted on other threads my views on that. Including what the Sharia and the scholars suggest is appropriate for rapists in those circumstances.

I have worked in some pretty unpleasant situations and seen some pretty unpleasant things. My colleagues who were in Gaza (some have got out, some have been killed, some were in fact murdered, two are missing) had similarly seen a lot. It takes a lot to phase us. The amount of trauma injuries they were and are dealing with was the worst they'd seen. What they were dealing with was unimaginable. And not unavoidable. It's easy to avoid using a sniper bullet to destroy a child's leg - you just don't shoot the child's leg. It's easy to avoid torture of detainees - you just follow international law in relation to the treatment of detainees. It's easy to avoid shooting unarmed and restrained civilians - you just don't pull the trigger. It's easy to avoid using white phosphorus, AI-targeted attacks on family homes, high-yield 'dumb bombs' in residential areas, etc. These are all things that are being chosen, and it is entirely reasonable for the world to say that this is not an acceptable way to conduct operations.

It is possible to think that Hamas have done terrible things and that the Israeli government/IDF have done terrible things. It is possible to want safety, justice and peace for Israelis and for Palestinians. Part of that, I hope, can involve investigating the murders of my friends, the killings of other humanitarian workers and healthcare professionals, and the events which led to the needless deaths and injuries of innocent civilians. Justice should be for all. Not just for some.

Use precision munitions instead of massive bombs sounds ideal, but where are the precise targets, when Hamas make sure it's impossible to separate them out from the civilian population?

To me, although anger at Israel is understandable, why not be even more angry with Hamas for ensuring that absolutely no one is safe?

If that is the case you don't drop the bomb.... you send in the army and I mean mandatory enlistment.... civilians are not collateral damage. For the record I am extremely angry at Hamas.

The saying "two wrongs do not make a right" spring to mind though, when people try to deflect from the wrong doing on Israels part.

A ceasefire would be fabulous wouldn’t it, if Hamas can be trusted to respect it.

I agree that justice is for all, but as it is, Hamas actually promised to commit the October 7th acts again until Israel is annihilated. I am not sure they are interested in fairness and justice. If they were they would annihilate themselves. They would not commit human rights abuses as a way of life.

I. might have some sympathy with protestors who would demand such a thing. Israel is perfectly able to live in peace but it seems to me that somehow Hamas must be eradicated for that to be remotely possible, because Hamas do not want peace, they want to eradicate the Jewish and I think it’s all very well for those of us sitting safely at home making demands on Israel, but if we had a neighbour determined to eradicate the entire population of British people, we might see things a bit differently. We might see it as “our lives or theirs” and demand the whole world stops lecturing us and instead turns its full attention to Hamas, because they are the ones ultimately responsible for all the terrible things you described.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-01/ty-article/hamas-official-we-will-repeat-october-7-attacks-until-israel-is-annihilated/0000018b-8b9d-db7e-af9b-ebdfbee90000

I think it’s all very well for those of us sitting safely at home making demands on Israel, but if we had a neighbour determined to eradicate the entire population of British people, we might see things a bit differently.

This is how I see it too (although I do understand, Scirocco, that you are not exactly in the "sitting safely at home" category ). It's a complete impasse.