Syria

[mids2019]

Has Syria been forgotten and who is to blame for civilian deaths in this region. It is Assad or rebel groups?

(Its a conflict in the middle East with huge civilian casualties but doesn't involve Israel so I guess this thread will for a death)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war#:~:text=The%20Syrian%20civil%20war%20(Arabic,sponsored%20and%20non%2Dstate%20actors.

hoping for the best but preparing for the worst?

What is the alternative?

Exactly, part of the fallout that spread to Syria's neighbouring countries during the civil war and after the tacit "support" of these rebels in the past, is an increase in targeting civilians through actions such as suicide bombings.

Despite what CNN and the BBC reports not all these "prisoners" are angels many of them have committed atrocities on a sectarian basis specifically targeting Christians (beheading Nuns), Alawite and Shia.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/12/beirut-bombings-kill-at-least-20-lebanon
"In a statement, Isis said the aim of the attack was to kill Shia Muslims"

The Syrian Christians that I know that were unable to get out are now hiding in fear.

https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/2016/03/27/471909689/in-syria-assyrian-christians-cling-on-after-isis-onslaught

@EasternStandard Is the best course of action to try and keep whoever takes over in sight and within conversation?

Perhaps this yes, I wish the best for the Syrians. The road ahead is not going to be easy but right now there is some hope atleast.

I'm listening to reporting now on the BBC WS and they mentioned that multiple countries are applying pressure on HTS

They are letting them know the standards needed to get the terrorist status lifted

I think this is most likely the best course of action for a better future, keep the connection but apply guidance and standards

Also hearing Syrians speaking out after such silencing is really moving

• The west has a long and inglorious history of making things worse in other countries. Anyone who thinks we should have intervened in Syria with military assets (because that is what it would have needed), to end the Assad regime also needs to explain how we could've withdrawn without another Afghanistan situation.

The country is a political hornets nest. Staying out and offering financial incentives (IMF will probably have to get involved) towards a free and fair state is the best thing we can do.

Doesn't matter. I thought the question was who tbe USA supported whether they were a 'main' group or not.

When you are saying that crimes against humanity seem to be prevalent in the middle east, do you include Israel in the count along side Syria?
If some people believe that the Israeli government is unjustly vilified, do you agree with them? If yes, why?

Like many in the UK although perhaps not on MN and like the UK and US Governments I support Israel, one of the few democracies in a sea of pretty awful countries from Iran to Saudi,
You are firmly a minority in the UK.
https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/49366-british-attitudes-to-the-israel-gaza-conflict-may-2024-update

This. If the west intervene its bad. If they don't it's bad. I think they west is increasingly likely to not get involved in situations like Syria, Yeman etc now unless factions take over and they do limited bombing of potential weapons sites.

Staying out of Syria and letting Assad get on with his tyranny meant a lot of sorrow for various groups in Syria. If they got involved it would have meant sorrow for others. Hindsight is easier and with so many western anti westerners they love a hood pop at the west, whilst often ignoring the sins of others.

I’m also worried about all these people being freed. Undoubtedly some will be political prisoners, but some must be plain criminals, maybe rapists, paedophiles etc. Then there’s the trauma of the liberated political prisoners, maybe it will be something akin to WW1 shell shock. Families will be expected to absorb these people, but surely some will be severely traumatised- there was a well documented upsurge in domestic violence amongst WW1 veterans.

@Dulra

"We do not have to be the world's policeman in the UK and USA."

"No the UK and US don't and it is definitely not down to any altruistic reasons that they do"

I fully agree and would add that the West would have been better off not getting involved in either Libya or Iraq and although both Gadaffi and Hussain were brutal dictators both countries would have suffered less death and destruction from the subsequent civil wars if they had been left in charge.

Still Im sure you will agree that at least it's good that Trump is also of the same view as you and I about not getting involved in Syria.

This. If the west intervene its bad. If they don't it's bad.

@OctoberOctopus I think that is often the case on here, and I do want Syria to flourish and the people to be without fear

Listening today there was a report on Iran potentially introducing an incredibly draconian law. I do think people have agency and laws as such cannot be placed on the west nor their intervention

If the west intervene its bad.

Was all you needed to be fair.

Was all you needed to be fair.

Where is your criticism of Assad regime and draconian laws in say Iran?

The anti west sentiment on mn is mind boggling. I assume you wouldn't trade places or would you?

Are you 12?

Its so childish isn't it? 'The West' has made many mistakes and intervention is really tricky but I've been travelling & living in the developing world all my life and people still aspire to western standards of living and western democracy everywhere. Self determination is absolutely essential but intervention can be positive, essential and very much wanted. And if we don't intervene people say 'where were you?' A much more adult debate is needed.

@SharonEllis I don't know what's happened that we get to the west is bad

We are all posting on a site not forced to comply to draconian laws or threat of silencing, we don't have to wear certain items or threat of imprisonment and if we want to say Starmer is a poor PM we can

I am aware my dd is better here than many other countries and my Ds too. I wouldn't swap for anything.

And I read these posts and just think what's happened? We're ready to throw this away. Why?

I don't think people are ready to throw it away really. Its the ultimate luxury belief, from the comfort of a prosperous democracy.

I don't think people are ready to throw it away really. It's the ultimate luxury belief, from the comfort of a prosperous democracy.

You are likely right. But imo people should think more about what they have.

They wouldn't swap I don't think

It is the ultimate luxury. That is so true

Something positive, an American citizen who went missing a couple of months ago was found after he was freed with other prisoners from a Syrian prison, and has now been flown back home.
It doesn't mention it in this article but I read elsewhere that a Syrian family found him hungry on the streets, took him in and helped him to contact his family.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tylerroush/2024/12/13/who-is-travis-timmerman-american-flown-out-of-syria-by-us-military-after-claiming-monthslong-imprisonment/

There are very very few good examples of western intervention in the ME. Feel free to suggest some.

You’ve got to wonder what that Timmerman guy was doing in Syria.

Said he was travelling and he decided to go
Syria for a pilgrimage or something like that although that's probably not the full story.

@Daftasabroom

There are very very few good examples of western intervention in the ME. Feel free to suggest some.

OK let's take the example of Libya. Gadaffi was attacking dissident groups calling for his removal with jet bombers.

There was protests and pressure in the West for the Government to step and do something to stop this, which eventually led to US and UK intervention and the overthrow of Gadaffi. Instead of creating some kind of stable democracy this instead led to a protracted civil war, enormous death toll, massive destruction and a country that is still divided today.

So my question to you is whether you would have preferred the West to have kept out of it and Gadaffi to have stayed in power despite being a brutal dictator forcibly suppressing dissent or for the West to have intervened and removed him thereby creating a power vacuum that was filled by death and destruction.

I am happy to admit that given the choice I would have gone for no Western intervention and Gadaffi staying in power as the lesser of two evils. Interesting this non involvement policy is what Trump is also advocating.

But as @SharonEllis points out there are many that criticise the West for not supporting the "brave resistance " trying to overthrow the evil dictators only to subsequently criticise the West for getting involved.

This self loathing of the West is not seen in other countries like India, China, Brazil or Russia. It's only in the West because firstly they have the freedom to do so and secondly because somehow they feel this makes them some kind of "superior anti establishment warrior " when the reality is they are simply negative bores - the types that complain that nothing interesting happens in their town but only to complain when it does.

I remember breaking the news of Gaddafi’s assassination to my Dad ( who had Alzheimer’s), he used to work in Libya. Despite the dementia, I remember the shock “ oh that’s very bad” is what he said. Even he in his reduced state could see how it would pan out.