Syria

[mids2019]

Has Syria been forgotten and who is to blame for civilian deaths in this region. It is Assad or rebel groups?

(Its a conflict in the middle East with huge civilian casualties but doesn't involve Israel so I guess this thread will for a death)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war#:~:text=The%20Syrian%20civil%20war%20(Arabic,sponsored%20and%20non%2Dstate%20actors.

This is completely unacceptable! Hafez died 24 years ago. A whole generation has suffered under the 'real' brutality of Bashar. Any suggestion that Bashar is not so bad is appalling.

A lot of people argued things should be done about Syria, again and again. But also there was huge opposition to intervening because western intervention would be colonial and interventions from regional states are accused of being compromised by their own interests.

The west are often criticised if they do or don't

@Whatsinanamehey were you for western intervention, what would you have wanted, troops on the ground etc?

Ok, let's agree on your statement. You didn't reply my question though, care to reply?
"We're saying the video @BelleHathor mentioned was obviously staged. They do this so they can create more empathy and create consent with viewers for whatever agenda they have. Did you watch the video? Did you really find it to be genuine?"
If you don't have the video here it is:

Sorry why are you demanding my opinion on some random video Whats it got to do with your minimising of Bashar's crimes which was the post I was commenting on?

No, not troops on the ground. Especially if that is not what the rebels and opposition wanted. Rather, the backing of those who wanted to overthrow the Assad regime, but I understand it can get complicated when there are groups like ISIS who wanted to do the same.

In London 2 million people protested against the second invasion of Iraq.

It was absolutely, completely, totally and utterly obvious, at the time, to Joe public, that the invasion was a monumental mistake that would have disastrous repercussions for years and years to come.

There's no schadenfreude or told you so, but do not pretend for one minute that if you were an adult at the time you thought that many people could be wrong.

I knew a few refugees from Saddams regime, I was an adult. I suspect I'm a wee bit older than you and have a few more news cycles in my memory.

@Whatsinanamehey just a quick Google but that appears to be the case?

'From the early stages of the conflict in Syria, major Western countries such as the U.S, France, and the UK have provided political, military and logistic support to the opposition and its associated rebel groups in Syria.'

And a friend of mine, my age, fought in the Iran - Iraq war. I have family who were asylum seekers from Iran in 1979. A neighbor was one of the last Brits out in 79.

Don't be so patronizing.

I marched against the Iraq war in the huge march and protested extensively against it. I had no access to the classified information that political & military leaders had access to. Of course I could absolutely have been wrong (this isnt the place to discuss the details) but I think just because a lot of people came out on the streets doesnt make them right. Its not a convincing argument.

Actually, I should have asked this question to @quantumbutterfly when they stated: "True. On this thread we have people wondering how it could have been allowed for so long, and then people saying that 'the west' staged victims to justify intervention."

The above statement sounds like we're making it up that the video is staged just to make accusations. I was curious if anyone carefully watched and still believed the video not to be staged. If so, I feel really pessimistic as I remember this quote from 1984: "the Party's goal was to have people believe what they were told, not what they saw"

Btw, there was/is no 'demanding', not intentional if it sounds like it.

@SharonEllis actually I have yet to hear a convincing argument FOR the Iraq invasion. Tony Blairs evidence to the Chillcot enquiry was awful.

That's a completely different point. Im not getting into the arguments around the war i was addressing your point that 'that many people' couldn't be wrong . Which is incorrect.

Hard not to be when you blithely tell me how easy it is for an A level student to make WMD..

I suppose it depends how you define WMD though, the 'lions' on the London tubes used a very basic explosive recipe, nerve gas & biotoxins need better ppe at least.

There is a lot of history to all this. Probably most of us agree the Assad regime was awful. I hope all chemical weapons in Syria can be destroyed.
I am certainly all for leaving the Syrians (and the Afghans) to sort out their own countries and we keep out of all that and just protect our own countries. We do not have to be the world's policeman in the UK and USA.

Like many in the UK although perhaps not on MN and like the UK and US Governments I support Israel, one of the few democracies in a sea of pretty awful countries from Iran to Saudi,

They did for a very short time and then they stopped. If I recall correctly it was when the rebels were called the FSA - the Free Syrian Army.

Israel a democracy?? The ICC has a warrant out against Netanyahu for war crimes.

I have to admit I do find the media doing a total turn around from portraying Jolani to al-qaidah terrorist with a huge bounty on his head to somewhat a rebel hero, somewhat strange. Yes, they haven't openly called him that but it has been tacitly implied.

The Free Syrian Army is one group that the US and others supported. The 'rebels' as a whole were not once called the FSA. There have been & are lots of different groups

Did I watch the video & think it was staged?
Who watches the story of a horror and picks it apart for flaws? Well plenty on this board it seems.
Do you doubt the stories coming from Assad's prisons?

Like every other observer I watch in horror for the victims, on all sides, though you won't believe me. The Syrians are full of hope for a better future but regimes need to be accepted/defended/enforced and your limits of acceptability for that may be very different and more idealistic than the people at the head of those regimes.

You say you're in the US with Turkish heritage? ??What are the best & worst parts of those countries?

Yes I know that, but the main rebel group at that time was the FSA.

We do not have to be the world's policeman in the UK and USA.
No the UK and US don't and it is definitely not down to any altruistic reasons that they do

Like many in the UK although perhaps not on MN and like the UK and US Governments I support Israel,
Not just on mumsnet attitudes have changed in UK
https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/uk-attitudes-toward-conflict-israel-and-gaza

If anyone's interested Sky's live feed on Syria details how Assad fled Syria. It was done very discreetly with even many close friends, family and aides left in the dark.

"The Syrians are full of hope for a better future but regimes need to be accepted/defended/enforced and your limits of acceptability for that may be very different and more idealistic than the people at the head of those regimes."

Are they really hopeful? Initially yes, as now there is the possibility that they can return back to their homes. But here is the hypocrisy of the situation:

Israel is bombing all the military bases and some other structures because they have concerns that these can be used by terror groups against them. Okay, fine. But at the same time, we are talking about Syria is now freed and these previously bad now good guys are in control and we can trust them with the future of Syrians. If they are so trustworthy with lives of civilians, then why destroy any military or other structures? Do you understand the cognitive dissonance here?

Also there might be many horrors from Assad's regime, sure but I don't instantly feel positively emotional about someone freed from the prison because I don't know why he was there in the first place. I understand you expect us to automatically think he was this poor guy (as an example and assuming everything in the above video is genuine) imprisoned by Assad because Assad was the bad bad dictator. But what if he was with Isis or some other radical group? What if he was beheading other people? What if he was raping women? Why should I automatically assume he is someone deserving my sympathy?

I'm actually very realistic, not idealistic. And this is the reality contradicting with what needs to be accepted automatically.

The proscribed terrorist label may be looked in to I believe

But realistically what are the options do you think?

The west can't put in a puppet gov, but not working with the people who do rule could make life even more unbearable for Syrians

Is the best course of action to try and keep whoever takes over in sight and within conversation?

Or would you suggest another way? Not saying you're wrong, just trying to understand what the realistic options are and what gives the most hope to a diverse society being free from fear