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Conflict in the Middle East

Terrible but not surprised - Jewish community under threat

689 replies

mids2019 · 14/05/2024 15:58

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx0331xxd7xo

It appears Jews are not safe in the UK at all.

Can we seriously look at the impact of anti semitism now?

Police at the home of one of the men arrested over an alleged terror plot

Three in court over alleged plan to attack Jewish community

Three men are accused of planning a gun attack on the Jewish community in North-West England.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cx0331xxd7xo

OP posts:
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13
Lilacblossom70 · 17/05/2024 11:09

@PeasfullPerson you are getting some flak on this thread but I think it's admirable that you are going to do some reading on things you've been picked up on.

The idea that you can't say anything critical of Israel without being accused on AS is honestly just so tedious and reminds me of my DM reading MIL going on about how you can't say anything these days, I'm sure you know the type.

Israel is full of people who are critical of the government. Large numbers of British Jews are too. Why aren't they on the marches? That's a question to reflect on (yes, some are but the majority find them.very hostile). Clue: it's not because they love Netanyahu or the scenes we are seeing in Gaza.

Criticism of the Israeli government is not antisemitic BUT it is very common for that criticism to be expressed in a way that very quickly moves into antisemitic territory. We have seen that on the marches(just as an example). If you saw a handful of islamophobic placards, you wouldn't brush them off as one-offs and expect everyone to be ok with them.

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 11:11

PeasfullPerson · 17/05/2024 10:10

Thanks Ella. I appreciate the way you explain your perspective about the marches and the information you’ve provided here. I’ve already started reading the large PDF on antisemitism and then I might try some videos. If you or anyone else thinks any of the resources on there are particularly useful please let me know.

@PeasfullPerson The more we can learn from each other the better. 💐

Dulra · 17/05/2024 12:18

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 10:56

“I never once said Jews in the UK are responsible for anything Israel does. I'm unsure how you picked that up from what I said.”
But you did say that Netanyahu’s comments were making things unsafe for Jews in this country. You seemed to be saying that Netanyahu was to blame for the increase in anti semitism ?

But you did say that Netanyahu’s comments were making things unsafe for Jews in this country. You seemed to be saying that Netanyahu was to blame for the increase in anti semitism ?

That's not what I said.

Read my post which you have just quoted, it explains exactly what I meant. I was responding to a poster looking for evidence of when the term antisemitism was used for the wrong thing. I was pointing out that Netanyahu's use of the term inappropriately had the danger of making the word meaningless which could run the risk of minimising the serious accusation of anti-semitism which unfortunately does impact Jews across the world. I never blamed Netanyahu for the rise in antisemitism.

pwrwulf · 17/05/2024 12:36

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

pwrwulf · 17/05/2024 12:38

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Dulra · 17/05/2024 13:13

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

No you're blaming him for antisemitism being minimised.
No I blaming him for minimising the term antisemitism not minimising antisemitism the two things are different. Maybe you agree with him that the UK/ US/Ireland/ EU/ Spain/ UN/WHO and ICC are all antisemitic but I don't and feel these blanket accusations are disingenuous.

Not the people doing the minimising.
I am not suggesting people are minimising antisemitism I am suggesting that people may not take it seriously if the term is used for things that aren't antisemitic.

The boy who cried wolf. So the claim of antisemitism is used falsely so often that when it really happens, we'll then they shouldn't have cried wolf then should they?
I am not saying they shouldn't cry wolf I am saying they should cry wolf when there is a wolf but if Netanyahu cries wolf when there isn't the real threats may be lost in the noise.

Blaming everyone for antisemitism except the antisemites.
I wasn't doing that I was commenting on a post yesterday so the context of my point has now been lost completely so I'm going to stop this conversation now because it is beginning to not make sense out of the context of yesterdays discussion.

pwrwulf · 17/05/2024 13:21

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This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Dulra · 17/05/2024 13:27

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

If someone doesn't take antisemitism seriously then that's their fault.
Yes it is their fault but we don't live in a perfect world and if they dismiss it, it doesn't affect them does it?

Stop trying to shift the blame.
Not once have I suggested it is right or just if this happens but it's a risk all the same.

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 13:33

But this is a thread about anti semitic attacks on Jewish citizens here and you linked that to Netanyahu. I do understand your point . But you seem more concerned about blaming Netanyahu than about calling out anti semitism.

noblegiraffe · 17/05/2024 13:39

It’s fairly astonishing to me that after more than 7 months of dismissing Jewish concerns, denying antisemitism, minimising issues, there are posters on this board who are only now thinking they ought to look into basic things like ‘what’s a Zionist?’ or ‘what is antisemitism?’

This board has actively driven away many Jewish posters. If people on here are wondering what a hostile environment for Jews looks like, they needn’t look too far.

Marjoriefrobisher · 17/05/2024 13:44

noblegiraffe · 17/05/2024 13:39

It’s fairly astonishing to me that after more than 7 months of dismissing Jewish concerns, denying antisemitism, minimising issues, there are posters on this board who are only now thinking they ought to look into basic things like ‘what’s a Zionist?’ or ‘what is antisemitism?’

This board has actively driven away many Jewish posters. If people on here are wondering what a hostile environment for Jews looks like, they needn’t look too far.

I agree with this, violently.
mumsnet on this issue is an absolute cess pit for much of the time.

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 13:46

I also think posters who are vocal in their support for Palestine should be more careful about weighing into a conversation on anti semitism with criticism of Netanyahu being their main point.

Fallingforwards · 17/05/2024 14:27

YaMuvva · 17/05/2024 08:12

Everyday Jewish people are not killing Gazans so your last sentence is irrelevant and appears to be downplaying it.

And I disagree with you - antisemitism has risen 250% worldwide and 500% in some places since October 7th. That is a direct link between the rise in pro-Palestinian support and antisemitism. To me that mean it’s the responsibility of people marching to make sure they are doing so in a way that doesn’t perpetuate antisemitism, calling out antisemitic banners/comments/actions. Properly calling it out and refusing to match with this people not just saying “Oh no look at that” and also generally be mindful of how their peaceful actions are so peaceful to Jewish people who are experiencing a rise in hate in no small part because of this support. Wether you mean to or not isn’t relevant

I am from a Jewish background and so I know well that everyday Jewish people are not killing people from Gaza.

You should no more claim there is a legitimate link between antisemitism and protesting, than claiming a legitimate link between the policies and actions of the Israeli government and antisemitism. Both are wrong.

That some people choose to take their disagreement with the Israeli government out on Jewish people generally is totally wrong. It does not negate the moral responsibility to protest against injustices. In my view, you can and should be anti-antisemitism and anti-Netanyahu. Many Jewish people are anti-Netanyahu.

British Jewish people are clearly not responsible for Netanyahu's morally bankrupt actions.

Dulra · 17/05/2024 14:30

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 13:46

I also think posters who are vocal in their support for Palestine should be more careful about weighing into a conversation on anti semitism with criticism of Netanyahu being their main point.

If you're talking about me how about reading all my posts on this thread. You seem to have a vendetta against me in particular and constantly misinterpreting what I'm saying.

Dulra · 17/05/2024 14:35

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 13:33

But this is a thread about anti semitic attacks on Jewish citizens here and you linked that to Netanyahu. I do understand your point . But you seem more concerned about blaming Netanyahu than about calling out anti semitism.

I assume this is also for me?

But you seem more concerned about blaming Netanyahu than about calling out anti semitism.
No I don't. You are picking out some of my posts and ignoring others. I have explained numerous times I was responding to a question which was asked yesterday and long been forgotten so now my posts are out of context to that thread of discussion.

YaMuvva · 17/05/2024 14:40

Fallingforwards · 17/05/2024 14:27

I am from a Jewish background and so I know well that everyday Jewish people are not killing people from Gaza.

You should no more claim there is a legitimate link between antisemitism and protesting, than claiming a legitimate link between the policies and actions of the Israeli government and antisemitism. Both are wrong.

That some people choose to take their disagreement with the Israeli government out on Jewish people generally is totally wrong. It does not negate the moral responsibility to protest against injustices. In my view, you can and should be anti-antisemitism and anti-Netanyahu. Many Jewish people are anti-Netanyahu.

British Jewish people are clearly not responsible for Netanyahu's morally bankrupt actions.

I totally disagree with you. Netenyahu represents the Israeli government not Jewish people. He is no more responsible for our reputation than the PM is responsible for Christian reputation.

Imagine that when the anti-terrorism marches were happening in the early 00’s and someone says “Your marches and support are directly linked to a rise in Islamophobia- could you maybe assess your narrative around your support and making sure that your words and actions don’t overstep a boundary for a group already experiencing hate” then shrugging saying “not my problem speak to the Taliban about this”

SharonEllis · 17/05/2024 14:49

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 13:46

I also think posters who are vocal in their support for Palestine should be more careful about weighing into a conversation on anti semitism with criticism of Netanyahu being their main point.

This. Its so often not the literal meaning of what they say, but the point at which they jump in to say it, in response to what point or in what context. It happens again and again on these threads, said with a faux innocence.

noblegiraffe · 17/05/2024 15:17

You should no more claim there is a legitimate link between antisemitism and protesting, than claiming a legitimate link between the policies and actions of the Israeli government and antisemitism. Both are wrong.

Are you claiming, @Fallingforwards , that the marches are an antisemitism-free zone? Because there’s lots of evidence that that’s not true.

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 15:52

Dulra · 17/05/2024 14:30

If you're talking about me how about reading all my posts on this thread. You seem to have a vendetta against me in particular and constantly misinterpreting what I'm saying.

Of course I don’t have a vendetta 🙄I don’t know you. I didn’t agree with your point. 🤷‍♀️

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 16:19

Humdingerydoo · 17/05/2024 09:11

Yup, £1600 per child per year is our current "voluntary" contribution that helps pay for security at our state school. That's in a normal year. Since October we also have something like 8 parent volunteers on top of that. Just for our kids to be safe at school.

I’m really really sorry. I was not aware of the extent of the threat and I hope it is much more widely discussed and addressed.
To be honest (as a non Jew )- until October 7th I thought antisemitism was a thing of the past so the events of recent months have horrified me.

Marjoriefrobisher · 17/05/2024 17:06

Limesodaagain · 17/05/2024 16:19

I’m really really sorry. I was not aware of the extent of the threat and I hope it is much more widely discussed and addressed.
To be honest (as a non Jew )- until October 7th I thought antisemitism was a thing of the past so the events of recent months have horrified me.

I think I had realised, after the corbyn interlude, that anti semitism in certain quarters was very much alive. I remain hopeful that it is a vocal minority. But it awareness needs to grow. It is appalling that parents are having to dig into their own pockets to deal with the security risk. Where the hell are the police on this?!

Fallingforwards · 17/05/2024 17:14

noblegiraffe · 17/05/2024 15:17

You should no more claim there is a legitimate link between antisemitism and protesting, than claiming a legitimate link between the policies and actions of the Israeli government and antisemitism. Both are wrong.

Are you claiming, @Fallingforwards , that the marches are an antisemitism-free zone? Because there’s lots of evidence that that’s not true.

No, not at all. I'm saying that protesting is not antisemitism. If people are inciting racial hatred and protesting, they should be arrested just like they should be at any other time.

Fallingforwards · 17/05/2024 17:17

YaMuvva · 17/05/2024 14:40

I totally disagree with you. Netenyahu represents the Israeli government not Jewish people. He is no more responsible for our reputation than the PM is responsible for Christian reputation.

Imagine that when the anti-terrorism marches were happening in the early 00’s and someone says “Your marches and support are directly linked to a rise in Islamophobia- could you maybe assess your narrative around your support and making sure that your words and actions don’t overstep a boundary for a group already experiencing hate” then shrugging saying “not my problem speak to the Taliban about this”

I think you have misunderstood me. I am precisely saying that Netenyahu does NOT represent Jewish people.

quantumbutterfly · 17/05/2024 17:21

Marjoriefrobisher · 17/05/2024 17:06

I think I had realised, after the corbyn interlude, that anti semitism in certain quarters was very much alive. I remain hopeful that it is a vocal minority. But it awareness needs to grow. It is appalling that parents are having to dig into their own pockets to deal with the security risk. Where the hell are the police on this?!

Like the security services, the police have to work on evidence and people who have hate in their hearts can hide it well in a trusting society, until they don't.
But, the police do seem to be struggling with the 'without fear or favour' part of their remit lately.

YaMuvva · 17/05/2024 18:19

Fallingforwards · 17/05/2024 17:14

No, not at all. I'm saying that protesting is not antisemitism. If people are inciting racial hatred and protesting, they should be arrested just like they should be at any other time.

Protesting is not antisemitic but it fuels antisemitism wether you like it or or - so that’s why I think it’s on protestors to be mindful and perhaps listen to the Jewish people your actions have a direct effect on

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