Gaza is a foreign war and councillors can't effect it

[mids2019]

Just this really. No matter how strong your feelings on Gaza why vote for local councillors ,who should be concerned about verge cutting and leisure centres, on this issue.

Your councillor won't finish a an audit committee on car parking charges in Oldham then get on the phone to Benjamin Netanyahu to have a go.

Are councillors getting votes on this ticket going to be any good for advocating for good local services.

In practice I will not vote for an MP or party I believe in, I will vote for whoever I feel is the lesser evil. That’s the sad state of our politics.

No...I'm a floating voter. I vote for whoever I think will improve my life at a particular time. I've voted for various parties in the past

How are you feeling about the results now, @mids2019 ?

It’s more to do with one’s moral compass. I would want to vote for someone who I know has integrity.

https://committees.oldham.gov.uk/mgListCommittees.aspx?bcr=1

Take a read of this hotbed of political activism that is Oldham county council? Any independent is going to get bored surely of the day to day minutae of scrutiny meetings and possibly not give full value for money for the public?

I understand the idea of the protest vote its just not in reality productive in my view. I don't think it's even legal for councils to digest themselves of any indirect investment in in forms that do business in Israel.

In reality all main parties are calling for ceasefire and increased humanitarian aid anyway so that leaves the idea of independents again a little redundant.

@mids2019 I have asked you a few times to point out the candidates that got through because of their views on Gaza and you haven't done this yet. I have not read anywhere that candidates that won won because of this. So I find this thread bizarre it's like you're trying to start a debate about something that hasn't even happened to have a dig at Pro Palestinian supporters

Take a read of this hotbed of political activism that is Oldham county council? Any independent is going to get bored surely of the day to day minutae of scrutiny meetings and possibly not give full value for money for the public?
And how do you know an independent is going to get bored and not give full value for money to the public? My country has plenty of independents in local and national government and they work extremely hard if not harder than their party colleagues.
Again can you point out the independents you are talking about

@mids2019, independent councillors and councils with 'no overall control' can work extremely effectively.

Sometimes, people stand for councillor positions backed by a party as a stepping stone in a political career, rather than due to a genuine desire to improve their community. An independent councillor is more, rather than less, likely to be interested in the responsibility of working to improve their community, as they are less likely to be using the council in this way. (Not to say everyone standing with a party affiliation is doing this, but some are).

An independently run or 'no overall control' council can also lead to more balanced decision-making and communication. People need to work together, compromise and communicate as part of decision-making processes, which usually leads to better overall engagement and outcomes.

@Scirocco

I agree and people do enter local politics for a number of reasons

The problem with only having one issue you wish to highlight is that you may not be able to have the bandwidth to concentrate on more mundane matters and I think there is a an argument if you do buckle down and concentrate on car parking that somehow undermines the fire in your belly about Gaza.

If you look at George Galloway he has made limited comment on local matters and I really feel this is to the detrimental of local voters

Is Palestine (and people calling for an end to the killing and oppression of Palestinians) really to blame for overgrown verges, late bin collections, potholes and dodgy street lighting...?

Or might those things actually be more within the responsibility of over a decade of financial mismanagement and austerity, by governments and local councils themselves? In which case, maybe more independent, community-minded councillors could be a good thing.

There is often a trend, when trying to justify the marginalisation, oppression and even eradication of a group of people, to blame those people for anything and everything. It's been a precursor to and part of multiple genocides and campaigns of oppression throughout history, including within the last 100 years.

I think it could be helpful if some people reflect on that and consider how their own actions and words may be contributing to that in this case.

Is Palestine (and people calling for an end to the killing and oppression of Palestinians) really to blame for overgrown verges, late bin collections, potholes and dodgy street lighting...?

Or might those things actually be more within the responsibility of over a decade of financial mismanagement and austerity, by governments and local councils themselves? In which case, maybe more independent, community-minded councillors could be a good thing.

There is often a trend, when trying to justify the marginalisation, oppression and even eradication of a group of people, to blame those people for anything and everything. It's been a precursor to and part of multiple genocides and campaigns of oppression throughout history, including within the last 100 years.

I think it could be helpful if some people reflect on that and consider how their own actions and words may be contributing to that in this case.

It’s to send a message to the national parties who, if they are in government, certainly can influence the belligerents by diplomatic and economic means.

Surely you knew this?

George Galloway isn't a councillor. He's an MP, who's been elected almost certainly on a protest basis, knowing that: a) nobody the constituency elected would be doing very much in the next few months anyway given the Conservative majority in Parliament, and b) there's going to be another election in a few months.

As for not having bandwidth to deal with multiple issues, it might come as a surprise but lots of people manage to multitask and have multiple interests/priorities. For example, at work I balance managerial, clinical, legal and teaching responsibilities, while also maintaining a relatively functional family home, while also being active in several humanitarian causes, while also maintaining other interests.

Lots of councillors will have interests, careers and priorities other than car parking charges. Having a party affiliation doesn't either remove those or grant magical superpowers.

@Scirocco

I agree with your statement about austerity and I think independent councillors have a role though it can be a lone furrow in a council without a majority.

My issue is with independent candidates whose sole reason for standing is to highlight the war in Gaza. If successful those candidates would have to focus on the role of councillor in terms of local governance and I wonder if this is what they wished when they first stood?

I think the result of this is going to be interesting as the aim of these independentsbis to presumably to pressure Labour into a stronger stance on Gaza. However at the moment, Labour and the Consevatives are being critical of Israeli tactics so I don't what extra independents can add in this respect.

It’s a terrible idea.

How comfort will a Jewish person feel comfortable bringing up a local problem?

Are we going to now get the country splitting along religious/ethnic fault lines, with Jewish councillors standing on pro Israel policies in Jewish areas?

People who have never had any interest (or knowledge) about the Middle East are simplistically taking sides in a very complex situation going back about 80 years now.

@mids2019 how many independent candidates have actually been elected on a single-issue basis though?

Well, voting along ethno-religious lines already happens in the U.K., just take a look at NI.

And the idea that the people voting for Galloway and his goons have never until now had any interest in Palestine is laughable. It’s been a hot topic among Muslims worldwide since 1947.

What's a terrible idea?

In relation to your point about whether a Jewish person could feel uncomfortable bringing up a problem to someone (presumably on the basis of that person having expressed pro-ceasefire or pro-Palestine views), I can empathise. At the moment, the UK government, the opposition in Westminster, the majority of party-affiliated councillors, etc have all been associated with the support and facilitation of the stigmatisation, oppression and killing of people like me. So, I don't want to support them by voting for those individuals or parties. Instead, I'm voting for candidates who have the best (in my opinion) combination of competence, shared views/values/priorities, and lack of affiliation with organisations and parties who have proven they do not deserve my support.

The majority of councillors, MPs, etc in the UK are still party-affiliated with parties which have demonstrated considerable support for or at least tacit acceptance of Israeli military action in Palestine, so if that is someone's marker for a representative being safe to speak with or not, then there are still lots of representatives available.

It's also important to remember that someone having concerns about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and saying they think there should be a ceasefire, doesn't mean that person hates Jewish people or hates Israel.

I agree OP.
Of course principles matter but a councillor is there to do a good job for local residents.
I don’t ask my electrician or my plumber their political views when choosing them, I want whoever will maintain my property best.

Was anyone voting on Gaza in local elections in a way they wouldn't have voted anyway? I can't believe a meaningful number of people were.

@Scirocco ,

‘It's also important to remember that someone having concerns about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and saying they think there should be a ceasefire, doesn't mean that person hates Jewish people or hates Israel.’

Well, clearly not, as I am Jewish and also have concerns about the current Israeli government and their actions.

On the other hand, I also want to see all the senior tier of Hamas eliminated and I broadly (although not unconditionally) see Israel as an ally of NATO and the West.

I would be equally uncomfortable with an elected Jewish councillor who draped himself in the Israeli flag and called for total victory.

I honestly think that we have got to the point where we need to start considering religion as private and ban it in public. France is going down that road. It is currently causing more trouble than benefit.

@Newbutoldfather I agree that Hamas have to go. They can't be left in a position of power, and there needs to be justice. Many people who want a ceasefire process share that view.

The situation in France worries me though. If we went down that route here, I'd be concerned we'd reach a point where (to use myself as an example), I wouldn't be able to participate in work, recreation or other aspects of society. That's exclusion rather than inclusion.

For all the criticisms I have of this country's government and some sections of society, this country is my home and I still want to be able to take part in society here. Demoting me to a second or third class, largely housebound citizen wouldn't make sense to me and would mean I could well need to leave for good.

@Scirocco ,

‘The situation in France worries me though. If we went down that route here, I'd be concerned we'd reach a point where (to use myself as an example), I wouldn't be able to participate in work, recreation or other aspects of society. That's exclusion rather than inclusion.’

This is a really tricky one.

It can seem that it is exclusionary to ban public religious displays but if you look at what happened in the Michaela school (majority Moslem) students were using public prayer to coerce and bully other children. That is why the school won its case.

Equally the Hasidic Jews in North London are allowed to be misogynistic under the guise of religion.

I am all for allowing as much freedom as possible but, as with the trans issue, it becomes a balancing of rights. Religious garb is increasingly being used in a way which is closer to tribal or military uniform than a statement of actual faith.

Do you honestly think that a prohibition of public displays of religion (not private) would prevent you from working?

@Scirocco

I would say George Galloway?

If I can't wear hijab places, then there are places I can't freely go, so yes, it would prevent me from working, socialising, doing essential daily things. Eg how do I take my DC swimming? How do I go to the shops? How do I vote?

It would also seem rather hypocritical to remove all public displays of religions other than Christianity (which cannot realistically be removed due to the widespread nature of those displays in what is at least nominally a Christian country).

I don't think we should ban public displays of faiths. For some people, faith is an integral part of who we are. Instead, I'd like to see people working towards acceptance and support of diversity, as well as embracing our common ground. For example, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all Abrahamic religions, with many similarities, but people who seek division only focus on the bits where the faiths diverge.

Not a councillor.