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Conflict in the Middle East
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111
Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 17:00

@Cuddlecouch "Palestine is well on the path to liberation" but from what??

Gunnersforthecup · 23/05/2024 18:15

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 16:54

One of the issues is that people are arguing about whose ancestors were in places first, hundreds and thousands of years ago, but there are people alive today who were living in their own homes, on their own land, who were thrown out of their own homes by armed men who decided they wanted to be there instead. There are people who are being thrown out of their own homes, on their own land, today.

Well, usually when we talk about indigenous people, we mean those with the earliest claim to the land, and whose ancestors were dispossessed, don't we?

So you seem to be using indigenous in a new and original way, here.

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 18:39

Gunnersforthecup · 23/05/2024 18:15

Well, usually when we talk about indigenous people, we mean those with the earliest claim to the land, and whose ancestors were dispossessed, don't we?

So you seem to be using indigenous in a new and original way, here.

I wasn't using the word indigenous at all, there.

Gunnersforthecup · 23/05/2024 18:47

Sorry, that was Cuddlecouch adopting "indigenous" and "colonisation" .

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 18:49

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 16:54

One of the issues is that people are arguing about whose ancestors were in places first, hundreds and thousands of years ago, but there are people alive today who were living in their own homes, on their own land, who were thrown out of their own homes by armed men who decided they wanted to be there instead. There are people who are being thrown out of their own homes, on their own land, today.

What land are you referring to ?

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 19:34

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 19:02

For example, this land.

https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/10/23/israel-hamas-war-settlers-speed-up-eviction-of-palestinian-bedouins-in-west-bank-hills-amid-war_6195780_4.html#

Or, if you'd like to go back a few years, the land we stood on, in front of armored bulldozers, to stop innocent people's homes being destroyed. We believed they wouldn't kill us. We were wrong.

http://www.miftah.org/display.cfm?DocId=1715&CategoryId=23#:~:text=The%20Israeli%20army%20has%20destroyed,began%20construction%20in%20October%202002.

For example.

On the face of it this looks like a very undesirable situation. As I have no knowledge of the issues I did some research. It seems it's not quite what is made out.

Bedouins are historically nomads.

It seems that Bedouins usually live in the Negev and it is unusual to find them on the West Bank.
In most countries in the Middle East the Bedouin have no land rights, only users’ privileges.
Israeli Law is derived largely from Mandatory (British) law which in turn incorporated much Ottoman law.
Under Israeli law, a person who has not registered his/her land in the Land Registry cannot claim ownership; but in the mid 1970s Israel let the Negev Bedouin register their land claims and issued certificates as to the size of the tracts claimed. These certificates served as the basis for the "right of possession" later granted by the government.In recent years the Ministerial Committee for the Advancement of Bedouin Affairs has undertaken to solve the problem of land ownership and has been assured of the necessary funds. The government is willing to leave some 20% of the land claimed in Bedouin possession and to compensate them for the remainder. In the past, tensions relating to land ownership have led to violence. A solution is now possible, but it requires the willingness and goodwill of both partners.Two kinds of land offenses make media headlines: illegal building (and grazing in protected areas):Illegal building: Tents and light structures (shacks and huts) built illegally are treated forgivingly. But construction of houses of stone or concrete without a building permit is considered an offense, since adequate infrastructure and services cannot be provided. Some 2,000 such locations with buildings already exist, scattered over an area of about 1,000 square kilometers.Apparently the Bedouins now have their own Ambassador called Ishmael Khaldi who was appointed in 2020

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 19:39

http://www.btselem.org/video/20240516_in_4_days_in_may_israel_demolished_21_structures_in_the_west_bank_leaving_67_people_homeless#full

Or this land.

And all the other many, many examples of the destruction of Palestinian homes by Israeli 'settlers', the IDF and other agencies.

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 19:40

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 19:39

http://www.btselem.org/video/20240516_in_4_days_in_may_israel_demolished_21_structures_in_the_west_bank_leaving_67_people_homeless#full

Or this land.

And all the other many, many examples of the destruction of Palestinian homes by Israeli 'settlers', the IDF and other agencies.

So what is the Bedouin Ambassador doing about this?

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 19:47

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 19:40

So what is the Bedouin Ambassador doing about this?

I don't think there's really much they, or anyone, can do. The people doing the evicting have all the power there.

The point is, though, that while the arguments go back and forth about ancestral claims dating back over a thousand years, there are people who are having this done to them now. Dispossession and occupation are happening now, and the human costs of this shouldn't be waved away.

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 19:53

@Scirocco "I don't think there's really much they, or anyone, can do. The people doing the evicting have all the power there."

Well if the settlements are illegal, then they should be moved but I would have thought there would be a better way of doing it.

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 19:59

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 19:53

@Scirocco "I don't think there's really much they, or anyone, can do. The people doing the evicting have all the power there."

Well if the settlements are illegal, then they should be moved but I would have thought there would be a better way of doing it.

The illegal settlements that need to be moved are mostly Israeli.

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 20:03

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 19:59

The illegal settlements that need to be moved are mostly Israeli.

I can't comment on that because I don't know what the law is.

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 20:13

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 20:03

I can't comment on that because I don't know what the law is.

That's one of key points of discussion here though, that Palestinians are having their homes, their land, their communities taken from them, now. If someone is saying they support Israeli actions in the Occupied Territories, this is part of what they're saying they support - occupation and forcible evictions.

There is pretty much nothing that any Palestinian can do about it, either. Because that's occupation for you.

Kindatired · 23/05/2024 20:22

Ireland must be doing something right - the Israeli Foreign minister has just released an anti Irish video trying to make it look like people in Ireland were dancing on 7/10 and supporting Hamas. So bizarre and undignified- they seem to clips from the body cams of the Hamas terrorists.
So weird when Israel took part in the Eurovision while killing children (unintentionally of course)
Heres the proof that the Netanyahu government is cashing in on the tragedy of 7/10 to bolster their dwindling support

https://x.com/Israel_katz/status/1793543828630340083?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1793543828630340083%7Ctwgr%5E9cee22d88ce488f63d4b4c7a97f8a909c72d7c42%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fisraeli-foreign-minister-accuses-ireland-of-rewarding-terrorism-sharing-bizarre-video-of-irish-trad-music-and-hamas-fighters%2Fa919056806.html

x.com

https://x.com/Israel_katz/status/1793543828630340083?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1793543828630340083%7Ctwgr%5E9cee22d88ce488f63d4b4c7a97f8a909c72d7c42%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fisraeli-foreign-minister-accuses-ireland-of-rewarding-terrorism-sharing-bizarre-video-of-irish-trad-music-and-hamas-fighters%2Fa919056806.html

Efacsen · 23/05/2024 20:35

That's pretty bizarre isn't it @Kindatired

And puerile

DomPom47 · 23/05/2024 20:45

If only Biden had an ounce of Bernie Sanders integrity
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7UGTQGopn1/?igsh=YjVleXRxdWxoejB4

To think that some shameful Democrats and Republicans are calling for sanctions on the ICC court and it’s staff. It’s a joke - call out what is happening - we can see it as clear as day but these people gaslight us into denying what is so clear for those who want to see it. Shame on the deniers of this genocide.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7UGTQGopn1/?igsh=YjVleXRxdWxoejB4

DomPom47 · 23/05/2024 20:47

How clearly this comedian explains it to those who are not blind and deaf to what has happened and continues to happen to Palestinians
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Ju4uUO7sq/?igsh=MWI2OGYzenZjZHI5Ng==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Ju4uUO7sq/?igsh=MWI2OGYzenZjZHI5Ng==

DomPom47 · 23/05/2024 20:55

Thank you Representative Jim McGovern for showing the hypocrisy of the US in following and ignoring rules as it suits them
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4YYGgQS0fY/?igsh=b3BqanNkZmNnODZw

Shame on Biden and the rest of the spineless US politicians for not caring for the innocent Palestinian people and caving into the Israeli lobby in the US. We are all witnesses to their lack of action and their aiding of this genocide.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4YYGgQS0fY/?igsh=b3BqanNkZmNnODZw

Tripeandonions · 23/05/2024 20:58

Scirocco · 23/05/2024 20:13

That's one of key points of discussion here though, that Palestinians are having their homes, their land, their communities taken from them, now. If someone is saying they support Israeli actions in the Occupied Territories, this is part of what they're saying they support - occupation and forcible evictions.

There is pretty much nothing that any Palestinian can do about it, either. Because that's occupation for you.

I would suspect that some of the Bedouin/Palestinian settlements are illegal.

Whenever Israel announces plans to build in the West Bank, an international furor erupts with claims about their illegality.
Meanwhile, the world was silent when the Palestinian Authority announced plans to violate the Oslo Accords unilaterally by canceling the West Bank’s division into Area A, B, and C and treating the entire area as sovereign Palestinian territory.
Even before that announcement, the Palestinians built settlements in Area C, where Israel must approve any construction.
Illegal settlements and infrastructure have spread across 250 Area C locations occupying more than 2,000 acres.
The PA has offered incentives, such as tax exemptions, discounts for vehicle registration, and jobs for those who settle in Area C
While Israel is pilloried anytime it suggests moving Bedouins from their encampments to another location or permanent housing, nothing is said about the PA’s efforts to do the same.

DomPom47 · 23/05/2024 21:00

Truth is lie and when you ask uncomfortable questions it’s just waffle
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5cnnVWyadm/?igsh=MTVpM3owc3dkeXhxYQ==

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5cnnVWyadm/?igsh=MTVpM3owc3dkeXhxYQ==

Kindatired · 23/05/2024 21:03

@Tripeandonions
I think you need to read more objectively
From Wikipedia:
Israel strictly controls Palestinian settlement, construction and development in Area C.[22]: 5 in the 12 years from 2000 to 2012, only 211 Palestinian submissions for Israeli permits, out of 3,750 applications (5.6%) – were approved. The figure tails off for the last 4 years, 2009 through 2012 with 37 permits given from among 1,640 applications (2.3%).[30] By contrast, the same Civil Administration figures indicate that in approximately 75% of Israeli settlements, construction was undertaken without regard for the appropriate permits.[30]
According to a UNOCHA report, "The planning and zoning regime applied by the Israeli authorities, including the ways in which public land is allocated, makes it virtually impossible for Palestinians to obtain building permits in most of Area C. Even basic residential and livelihood structures, such as a tent or a fence, require a building permit."[19]: 3

mactire · 23/05/2024 21:07

Gunnersforthecup · 23/05/2024 15:09

Are the Palestinians or the Israelis the indigenous people? Isn't it amore complicated situation that you're suggesting here?

Fighting over who is the True Indigenous is a red herring imo (and a shield for Israel to hide behind in their brutalisation of the Gazans). When the Good Friday Agreement was reached, the thrust of the agreement wasn’t “well the loyalists were settlers, ergo not entitled to the land, ergo they must leave and cede power to the nationalists”. Because it’s nonsensical and ignores the reality on the ground - and the Ulster plantation is far more recent history.

Finallyloggedin · 23/05/2024 21:48

WHO: After the Israeli blockade of Kamal Odwan and Al Awdeh hospitals in #Jabalia, 700,000 people have become without a proper medical facility..

🗣️Pregnant women do not have any place for following up or giving birth..

🗣️People wounded in #Israeli_bombings do not have any place for treatment..

🗣️Premature babies do not have any place to help them stay alive..

https://x.com/abujomaagaza/status/1793588405164441761?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

x.com

https://x.com/abujomaagaza/status/1793588405164441761?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

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