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Conflict in the Middle East
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111
DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 09:48

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 09:40

@Scirocco The legality of Settlements is disputed.

It is a contentious and complicated issue.

On November 18, 2019, Secretary of State Michael Pompeosaid that
that “the establishment of Israeli civilian settlements in the West Bank is not per se inconsistent with international law.” The media inaccurately described this as a reversal of longstanding American policy. In truth, the record is more complicated.

Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria—the West Bank—since ancient times.

They were prohibited from living in the territories only during Jordan’s occupation from 1948 to 1967. Jews began to settle in the area again after it was captured by Israeli forces in the defensive war fought in 1967

The idea that these Jewish communities are illegal derives primarily from UN Resolutions and the International Court of Justice (ICJ), an arm of the UN.

The UN does not make legal determinations, only political ones tainted by the overwhelming anti-Israel majority.

  • *The ICJ “does not have jurisdiction over all disputes between UN member-states,” according to the Congressional Research Service. In fact, “with the exception of ‘advisory opinions,’ which are non-binding, the ICJ may only resolve legal disputes between nations that voluntarily agreed to its jurisdiction.”

Israel does not recognize the court’s jurisdiction on the settlement issue. Like other democracies, Israel has an independent judiciary. As Pompeo noted, its Supreme Court has “confirmed the legality of certain settlement activities and has concluded that others cannot be legally sustained.”

Never once in your posts (ones I have read) have I seen the words two state solution and peace and security for Palestinians and Israelis.

So in essence we can see that for you and people who think like you the right of Palestinians to exist is actually the real “contentious and complicated issue”.

Anything Israel government does is either fine or it’s complicated.

Thank you for making me laugh aloud.

quantumbutterfly · 19/05/2024 10:00

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 07:33

@Dulra Let's look back and see how the situation came about and whose land it actually is.
In May 1948, the Jordan’s Arab Legion overran the eastern part of Jerusalem and occupied the Old City and its Holy Places. Following the 1948 War, Jordan continued to occupy East Jerusalem and what is now commonly referred to as the West Bank. This included the area the UN partition decision had allotted for an Arab state.Rather than seek independence for a Palestinian state, the Arabs from the area allotted for an Arab state in the UN partition resolution agreed to the unification of Palestine with Jordan and swore fealty to the king at the Jericho Conference on December 1, 1948.On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted the following resolution annexing the West Bank and Jerusalem:
"Approval is granted to complete unity between the two banks of the Jordan, the Eastern and Western, and their amalgamation in one single state: The Hashemite Kingdom of the Jordan, under the crown of his Hashemite Majesty King Abdullah ben el-Husein the exalted."

King Abdullah acted over the objections of the Arab League.
Great Britain and Pakistan were the only countries that recognized Jordan’s annexation and occupation.
Two-thirds or more of King Abdullah’s subjects in the new combined Kingdom were Palestinians and one-third, or slightly less, native Jordanians. The total population was estimated at between 1 and 1.2 million, comprised of roughly one-third Palestinians resident in their own homes West of the Jordan River, one-third Jordanians and one-third refugees from parts of Palestine that are now within Israel. According to Jordan’s website, “All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it.”

During the nineteen years of Jordanian administration, Jordan refused to honor its undertaking in the armistice agreement to accord free access to the Holy Places and to cultural institutions, and use of the Jewish cemetery on The Mount of Olives (Section III, Document 6, Article VIII, and Section V, subsection E, Documents 15 and 16). Jews were barred from the Old City and denied access to the Western Wall and other Holy Places. The Jewish Quarter in the Old City was destroyed; fifty-eight synagogues were also destroyed or desecrated. Thousands of tombstones in the Jewish cemetery on The Mount of Olives were destroyed to pave a road and build fences and latrines in Jordanian army camps.

During the Jordanian occupation, Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

After Israel reunified Jerusalem and captured the West Bank in the Six-Day War, King Hussein still insisted, “The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.”

According to analysts who support Israeli settlements, the presence of hostile, armed forces on the high ground of the West Bank would pose a security risk to the narrow Israeli land between the West Bank and the Mediterranean coast, which contains some of the country's biggest strategic assets, including Ben Gurion airport, the largest electric power station, and highly-populated cities.

Over half of the Israeli public believes settlements reinforce Israel's security.

Interesting. Thank you. Had not appreciated the Jordanians behaviour.

But hey, they're not Jewish let's give them a free pass.

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 10:20

@DomPom47 Never once in your posts (ones I have read) have I seen the words two state solution and peace and security for Palestinians and Israelis.

That's because I don't think it can be achieved.

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 10:48

Israel not recognising something and the rather biased right-wing US government deciding to back them up does not mean that they're in the right.

Israeli 'settlers', backed by their government and the IDF, remove innocent people from their homes at gunpoint, destroy their homes and land, and build their own 'settlements' instead. Innocent people are prevented from farming their own land by armed 'settlers' who threaten, injure and even kill them for simply existing on their own land. Being Palestinian in the Occupied Territories means you are at constant risk of harm, with no legal consequences for anyone perpetrating that harm. Occupation and oppression are contrary to international humanitarian law and basic human rights.

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 10:55

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 10:20

@DomPom47 Never once in your posts (ones I have read) have I seen the words two state solution and peace and security for Palestinians and Israelis.

That's because I don't think it can be achieved.

So your solution would be....

... eradicate the Palestinians and all rights they might (should) have? (wiping out an entire people or forcibly displacing an entire people is generally considered a bit of an ethical no-no)

... a single state in which Israelis and Palestinians live together as equal citizens? (which would in practice mean that Israel as a Jewish country would cease to be, and would likely be a secular state instead)

... continued oppression and occupation? (which just continues this cycle of hatred and bloodshed)

Liv999 · 19/05/2024 12:48

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 10:48

Israel not recognising something and the rather biased right-wing US government deciding to back them up does not mean that they're in the right.

Israeli 'settlers', backed by their government and the IDF, remove innocent people from their homes at gunpoint, destroy their homes and land, and build their own 'settlements' instead. Innocent people are prevented from farming their own land by armed 'settlers' who threaten, injure and even kill them for simply existing on their own land. Being Palestinian in the Occupied Territories means you are at constant risk of harm, with no legal consequences for anyone perpetrating that harm. Occupation and oppression are contrary to international humanitarian law and basic human rights.

👏👏

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 13:06

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 10:55

So your solution would be....

... eradicate the Palestinians and all rights they might (should) have? (wiping out an entire people or forcibly displacing an entire people is generally considered a bit of an ethical no-no)

... a single state in which Israelis and Palestinians live together as equal citizens? (which would in practice mean that Israel as a Jewish country would cease to be, and would likely be a secular state instead)

... continued oppression and occupation? (which just continues this cycle of hatred and bloodshed)

I have no idea what the solution would be but I do know the Palestinians rejected a 2-state solution 5 times.

https://lawandsocietymagazine.com/how-palestine-rejected-offer-to-have-its-own-state-5-times-in-the-past/

How Palestine rejected offer to have its own state 5 times in the past

If Israel just allowed the Palestinians to have a state of their own, there would be peace in the Middle East, right?That’s what you hear from ambassadors, European diplomats, and most college professors. But what if I told you that Israel has alre...

https://lawandsocietymagazine.com/how-palestine-rejected-offer-to-have-its-own-state-5-times-in-the-past

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 13:11

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 10:48

Israel not recognising something and the rather biased right-wing US government deciding to back them up does not mean that they're in the right.

Israeli 'settlers', backed by their government and the IDF, remove innocent people from their homes at gunpoint, destroy their homes and land, and build their own 'settlements' instead. Innocent people are prevented from farming their own land by armed 'settlers' who threaten, injure and even kill them for simply existing on their own land. Being Palestinian in the Occupied Territories means you are at constant risk of harm, with no legal consequences for anyone perpetrating that harm. Occupation and oppression are contrary to international humanitarian law and basic human rights.

Let's have a look at the history of "settlements":

From 1949 to 1967, when Jews were forbidden to live on the West Bank, Arab leaders refused to make peace with Israel.

From 1967 to 1977, the Labour Party established only a few strategic settlements, yet Arab leaders were unwilling to agree to peace with Israel.
The fact that a Likud government committed to greater settlement activity took power in 1977 did not stop Egypt from signing a peace treaty with Israel or Prime Minister Menachem Begin from removing the Jewish settlements in the Sinai.
Israel froze settlement building for three months in 1978, hoping the gesture would entice other Arabs to join the Camp David peace process, but none did.

In 1994, Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel, and settlements were not an issue.

Between June 1992 and June 1996, under Labour Party–led governments, the Jewish population in the territories grew by approximately 50%. This rapid growth did not prevent the Palestinians from signing the Oslo accords in September 1993 or the Oslo II agreement in September 1995. Those agreements left the question of settlements for final status negotiations and did not put any restrictions on them in the interim.

In 2000, Prime Minister Ehud Barak offered to dismantle dozens of settlements, but the Palestinians still would not agree to end the conflict.

In 2005, Israel evacuated all Jewish settlements in the Gaza Strip and four in Northern Samaria, but terror attacks continued.

In 2008, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert offered to withdraw from approximately 94% of the West Bank, but the deal was rejected.
__
In 2010, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu froze settlement construction for ten months, and the Palestinians refused to negotiate until the period was nearly over. After agreeing to talk, they walked out when Netanyahu ended the freeze and had still not returned to negotiations by August 2022.

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 13:12

Can you find an article with fewer cookies and security alerts attached to it? That one's got far too many issues with it for me to want to go beyond the 'back to safety' alert that's popped up.

But in general terms, yes, people have rejected two state proposals in the past. Some people (including Netanyahu) have also actively sabotaged efforts to make progress towards a two state solution. There have also been decades of people (and yes, that includes Palestinian people) saying that a two state solution is the least bad option here. It won't please everyone, but it's better than death and destruction on this scale.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 13:13

A little bit of history on the peace loving group that has so much power in the US that is AIPAC
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3rGZbyOvDf/?igsh=N3VidjRlNGRraTZm

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3rGZbyOvDf/?igsh=N3VidjRlNGRraTZm

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 13:18

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 13:12

Can you find an article with fewer cookies and security alerts attached to it? That one's got far too many issues with it for me to want to go beyond the 'back to safety' alert that's popped up.

But in general terms, yes, people have rejected two state proposals in the past. Some people (including Netanyahu) have also actively sabotaged efforts to make progress towards a two state solution. There have also been decades of people (and yes, that includes Palestinian people) saying that a two state solution is the least bad option here. It won't please everyone, but it's better than death and destruction on this scale.

I can't help with that I'm afraid.

It could be your ISP has a very strong Firewall or you are outside UK .

Kindatired · 19/05/2024 13:35

@Tripeandonions
Your history lesson is clearly from the Pro-Israeli perspective and would appear to be justifying settlements of the Erst Bank in the basis of events prior to 1967. Do you agree with settlement in the Westbank in the subsequent years yourself?

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 13:41

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 13:18

I can't help with that I'm afraid.

It could be your ISP has a very strong Firewall or you are outside UK .

I quite like decent internet security, so won't be reading that article then.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 14:25

@Tripeandonions second time you have made me laugh aloud this fine Sunday. I think in real life we would drive each other mad and have some very animated discussions.

For those interested on an alternative to Tripeandonions history lesson here is mine….obviously there’s lots out there and everyone should go off and do some reading and researching:

After the Holocaust, the UN had a division Israel 56% and Palestine 43% NEITHER side accepted this.

In some circles historians agree that Israel publicly agreed the UN plan but this was disingenuous as the founders of Israel made it clear that they would actually take as much Palestinian land as possible.

I ll let those of you who are interested find out who said: “A Jewish state on only part of the land is not the end but the beginning. … The establishment of a state, even if only on a portion of the land, is the maximal reinforcement of our strength at the present time and a powerful boost to our historical endeavors to liberate the entire country.”

1948 you have the Nakba where 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled, and 500 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Which shows that the statement made above was the plan all along.

In 1956, Israel joined with France and the U.K. to invade Gaza and Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula. Eisenhower government kicks up a fuss and Israel leaves. administration.
In the 1967 war, Israel once again takes over Sinai and Gaza, as well as the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Golan Heights in Syria.
After the 1973 Arab-Israeli war Israel returns the Sinai Peninsula but thinks that’s them generous enough and hold onto everything else.

All though some want us to believe that the Arab world want the Jews to not exist and for there not to be an Israeli state this is not true there were various leaders from Syria, Egypt and Jordan who understood the importance of the Jews having a homeland but this had to be with a fine balance with the Palestinians.

Look at this statement in 1949 from the same person from my first quote to the Israeli ambassador to the United Nations “sees no need to run after peace. The armistice is sufficient for us; if we run after peace, the Arabs will demand a price of us: borders or refugees or both. Let us wait a few years.” and later on“With the passage of time, the world would get used to Israel’s existing borders, and forget about U.N. borders and the U.N. idea of an independent Palestinian state.”

Come 1949 there’s a meeting in Switzerland and the Arabs say Israel having 78% is not workable but should be 56% and that refugees should be allowed to go back to their homes. Surprise - Israel rejects this.

Someone from the US writes, “There never has been a time [during negotiations] when a generous and far-sighted attitude on the part of the Jews would not have unlocked peace. … As an advocate of the new state I hope they come to it eventually. Otherwise there will be no peace in the Middle East.” Very wise delegate from the US, predicting the future.

1964 and enter onto the stage the Palestinian Liberation Organisation. The PLO for peace wanted 22% of Palestine (made up of Gaza and the West Bank) Come 1976 the U.N. Security Council said ISrael “withdraw from all the Arab territories occupied since June 1967.” All bar the USA on the Security Council voted for this. Israel said no and the USA vetoed it.

Come 1982 Israel invaded Lebanon and Zeev Maoz said there one of the aims of this action was to get rid of the PLO and so Palestinian nationalism.

1988 PLO accepts Israel’s right to exist in both peace and security. Israel says thanks but with none of the same courtesy for a Palestinian state.

1993 we have the Oslo Accords which were just words with nothing concrete about a Palestinian state and peace- Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin says clearly “We do not accept the Palestinian goal of an independent Palestinian state between Israel and Jordan. We believe there is a separate Palestinian entity short of a state.”

2000 “I did not have sexual
relations with that woman Clinton” has a meeting with Arafat and Israeli PM Ehud Batak. Palestinians accept the 22% of historic Palestine as their land but PM Batak (would definitely win a negotiation task on the Apprentice) said nope instead offering them 3 disconnected areas with the Israelis occupying and controlling border with Jordan. To think that Arafat didn’t accept this great offer, shame on him! Just think an Israeli negotiator: Shlomo Ben-Ami “Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian, I would have rejected Camp David as well.”

2001 change of scenery we are now in Taba in Egypt. Both sides are talking it’s a few weeks before Israeli elections, the Israelis leave the stage and terminate discussions.

Enter to the stage Ariel Sharon who doesn’t want a Palestinian state and thinks talking is over rated and so doesn’t restart peace talks.

Many years later the honest President that was Bill Clinton’s wife comes onto the stage and carries on the false narrative that the Palestinians didn’t want peace.

It is now 2002 and Saudi Arabia thinks they will have a go at proposing peace and come up with Arab Peace Initiative asking for
an agreement along the standard lines that were known for decades: Israelis to withdrawal from the occupied territories, a fair division of Jerusalem, and “a just solution to the Palestinian refugee problem.” 22 members of the Arab League endorsed it, as did the 57-state Organization of Islamic Cooperation. Israel. PM Sharon ignores it.

Exit stage: Sharon has a stroke and Arafat dies.

Enter onto stage right wing and proud PM Olmert and Mahmoud Abbas. Again US rhetoric the Israelis make a wonderful offer to the Palestines but does horrid Palestinians reject this offer. Behind the scenes PM Olmert who is just as honest as President Clinton is under investigation for bribes and resigns.

Enter onto stage another honest and peace loving Israeli PM Netanyahu.

Behind the scenes you have Hamas.
1997 Hamas leader Khaled Mashal offers a 30 year ceasefire and negotiations with Israel. Israel doesn’t respond but attempt to spice things up by trying to assassinate Mashal in Jordan.
2004 Hamas’s religious leader calls for a 10 year ceasefire with Israel and a return to pre-1967 borders but Israel assassinated him.

2006 Hamas wins the elections over the PLO. PM İsmail Haniyeh writes to President George Bush: “We are so concerned about stability and security in the area that we don’t mind having a Palestinian state in the 1967 border and offering a truce for many years.”
President Bush doesn’t respond.

2009 Efraim Halevy (side note for those who are interested Efraim is a beautiful name which means fruitful and productive) who used to head Mossad, writes Hamas had seen that “its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future,” but “Israel, for reasons of its own,” was not interested in peace talks.

In this same year a think tank in the US
Institute of Peace, reports repeatedly that Hamas had “sent repeated signals that it may be ready to begin a process of coexisting with Israel.”

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 15:38

@DomPom47 You seemed to have left quite a bit out.

In 1956, Israel joined with France and the U.K. to invade Gaza and Egypt’s Sinai Peninsula. Eisenhower government kicks up a fuss and Israel leaves. administration.

The Suez Crisis of 1956 saw Israel, along with Britain and France, invade Egypt. Here’s why:

  1. Objective: Israel aimed to reopen the Straits of Tiran and the Gulf of Aqaba, which Egypt’s blockade had closed for eight years, hindering all passage.
  2. Nationalization of Suez Canal: Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser had nationalized the Suez Canal, transferring control from the foreign-owned Suez Canal Company to Egypt’s government-owned Suez Canal Authority.
  3. Joint Ultimatum: The UK, France, and Israel issued a joint ultimatum for a ceasefire, seeking to depose Nasser and regain control of the Suez Canal.
  4. International Pressure: Heavy political pressure from the US, Soviet Union, and the UN led to their eventual withdrawal from Egypt.
Outcome: Israel occupied the Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip and Sinai Peninsula, gaining freedom of navigation through the Straits of Tiran, but the Suez Canal remained closed until March 1957.
Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 16:06

@DomPom47 After the Holocaust, the UN had a division Israel 56% and Palestine 43% NEITHER side accepted this.

I have no idea what this means ^

The UN voted on a revised Partition Plan for Palestine in 1947
33 for
13 against
10 abstentions (inc GB)
1 absent

Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition. The Arab states' delegations declared immediately after the vote for partition that they would not be bound by the decision, and walked out accompanied by the Indian and Pakistani delegates.
They argued that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny. The Arab delegations to the UN issued a joint statement the day after that vote that stated: "the vote in regard to the Partition of Palestine has been given under great pressure and duress, and that this makes it doubly invalid."

On 16 February 1948, the UN Palestine Commission reported to the Security Council that: "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."

King Farouk of Egypt told the American ambassador to Egypt that in the long run the Arabs would soundly defeat the Jews and drive them out of Palestine.

The Arab League said that some of the Jews would have to be expelled from a Palestinian Arab state.

Haj Amin al-Husseini (Arab nationalist) said in March 1948 to an interviewer from the Jaffa daily Al Sarih that the Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were annihilated"

He continued "The Jews took advantage of the previous war to settle in the Holy Land. The Jews are a threat not just in Palestine, but in every Arab country, since this is where the Allies plan to resettle the millions of Jews who were expelled from Europe. The Arabs must fight with all their strength to put an end to this plot."

I could post more, but I think people now get the picture that even before the State of Israel was created anti-semitism was alive and well in the Arab world.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 19:01

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 16:06

@DomPom47 After the Holocaust, the UN had a division Israel 56% and Palestine 43% NEITHER side accepted this.

I have no idea what this means ^

The UN voted on a revised Partition Plan for Palestine in 1947
33 for
13 against
10 abstentions (inc GB)
1 absent

Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution and indicated that they would reject any other plan of partition. The Arab states' delegations declared immediately after the vote for partition that they would not be bound by the decision, and walked out accompanied by the Indian and Pakistani delegates.
They argued that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny. The Arab delegations to the UN issued a joint statement the day after that vote that stated: "the vote in regard to the Partition of Palestine has been given under great pressure and duress, and that this makes it doubly invalid."

On 16 February 1948, the UN Palestine Commission reported to the Security Council that: "Powerful Arab interests, both inside and outside Palestine, are defying the resolution of the General Assembly and are engaged in a deliberate effort to alter by force the settlement envisaged therein."

King Farouk of Egypt told the American ambassador to Egypt that in the long run the Arabs would soundly defeat the Jews and drive them out of Palestine.

The Arab League said that some of the Jews would have to be expelled from a Palestinian Arab state.

Haj Amin al-Husseini (Arab nationalist) said in March 1948 to an interviewer from the Jaffa daily Al Sarih that the Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were annihilated"

He continued "The Jews took advantage of the previous war to settle in the Holy Land. The Jews are a threat not just in Palestine, but in every Arab country, since this is where the Allies plan to resettle the millions of Jews who were expelled from Europe. The Arabs must fight with all their strength to put an end to this plot."

I could post more, but I think people now get the picture that even before the State of Israel was created anti-semitism was alive and well in the Arab world.

Not going to ping pong the historical points.

My reading and inference is that the different Israeli governments have actively avoided a fair peace deal.

Here’s hoping the future is fairer.

On the antisemitism part we know that it is deeply rooted in Christianity and European History rather than Muslims and Arabs.

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 19:28

@DomPom47 On the antisemitism part we know that it is deeply rooted in Christianity and European History rather than Muslims and Arabs.

I would disagree.
While unfortunately, in the past, history hasn't been kind to Jewish people, the modern world is a lot more charitable.

However, I understand that the Hadith contains some pretty unpleasant comments about Jews, one of which was used by Hamas and became a part of the Hamas original 1988 charter.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 19:34

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 19:28

@DomPom47 On the antisemitism part we know that it is deeply rooted in Christianity and European History rather than Muslims and Arabs.

I would disagree.
While unfortunately, in the past, history hasn't been kind to Jewish people, the modern world is a lot more charitable.

However, I understand that the Hadith contains some pretty unpleasant comments about Jews, one of which was used by Hamas and became a part of the Hamas original 1988 charter.

I guess you are not including 1939-1945 as part of the modern world whereas most people would.

If this is genuinely your view I d stay away from the US and those Trump loving supporters who very clearly love the Jews.

I m an atheist so my view on religion is generally speaking cautious and my knowledge is not in debt. The Hadith is not the Qu’ran so not considered to be the word of God for Muslims.
It things that were said by man/interpreted by man. If you read the Torah and Bible or any religious book for that matter you will find a lot of very unpleasant comments about a lot of people.

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 19:54

@DomPom47 If you read the Torah and Bible or any religious book for that matter you will find a lot of very unpleasant comments about a lot of people.

That IMO is a rather sweeping statement, coming from an atheist,

I have read the Torah (first 5 books of the Christian Bible) the rest of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

I haven't read the Koran, The Vedas, The Book of Mormon, The Sikh Scriptures or the Sacred texts of Buddism.

I can say that the New Testament contains very few unpleasant comments about anyone. They are mainly confined to Our Lord criticizing the Jewish Religious hierarchy of the time.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 20:02

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 19:54

@DomPom47 If you read the Torah and Bible or any religious book for that matter you will find a lot of very unpleasant comments about a lot of people.

That IMO is a rather sweeping statement, coming from an atheist,

I have read the Torah (first 5 books of the Christian Bible) the rest of the Old Testament and the New Testament.

I haven't read the Koran, The Vedas, The Book of Mormon, The Sikh Scriptures or the Sacred texts of Buddism.

I can say that the New Testament contains very few unpleasant comments about anyone. They are mainly confined to Our Lord criticizing the Jewish Religious hierarchy of the time.

Gosh I suppose it must just be those horrid Muslims and their antisemitism.

All the other books and religions are peace loving and all inclusive.

I mean I could go and find a few quotes from other religions but I have tiny feeling it will be a case of that’s interpretation but with those antisemitic Muslims it’s a clear black and white narrative.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 20:09

Footage from one of peace loving Suella’s hate marches in London.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7KPjDmrN4x/?igsh=MWRpY2d1cnY4ejg0YQ==

People of all ages and backgrounds coming together - what is wrong with them? What do they have in common, they’re all antisemitic I guess. That makes far more sense than the fact that they want an end to the murder of Palestinians.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7KPjDmrN4x/?igsh=MWRpY2d1cnY4ejg0YQ==

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 20:09

@DomPom47 All the other books and religions are peace loving and all inclusive.

I didn't say that at all.
Please don't misquote me.

Factsareimportantplease · 19/05/2024 21:05

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 09:34

Yes they have a historical link to the land.
They have a right to co exist on that land.
They have a right to peace and security.
They have a right to infrastructure like schools and hospitals.
They have a right to live around freely and happily.

I think that Palestinians also need to have all these right.

This can’t happen without international law been followed and people recognising that the plight of Palestinians is dire.

E.g Settlements on Palestinian land is there to create a patch work of Palestinian territory and displace Palestinian people. If you create enough patch work like areas through settlements a Palestinian state will not be possible. A two state solution will not be possible.

Realistically are we going to see the hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens in these illegal settlements (Violation of the 4th Geneva Convention - which Israeli government obviously disputes - because we know Israel doesn’t break international law!) give up their illegal homes? No.

In your previous reply you suggested that someone with no historical link could come and settle in Palestinian lands. (Of whom were you referring then?) I pointed out that Jewish people have historical links..... you now agree.

Personally I think a 2 state solution with international peace keeping. No more missiles lobbed into Israel and no settlers encroaching on lands that are outside the state boundary. Perhaps no man's land between where no one lives for safety

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