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Conflict in the Middle East
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111
DomPom47 · 18/05/2024 20:57

Palestinian teacher Sabreen Msarwi who holds Israeli citizenship went on a march to commemorate the Nakba Day. Students chanted peacefully “May your village burn down.”
Give it time, they will burn it down or
bomb it.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Hz4ATtd-j/?igsh=MWI0bjF5ZTNvZ3V3NA==

Based on some posters views, those poor students- they know someone impacted from the October attacks.
This teacher provoked them by attending a march that marks the occupation of Palestinian lands.
Israel is the greatest democracy in the Middle East - these kids have freedom of speech.
What about those hateful and naive university protestors in Europe and around the world - they can say what they want like calling for a seize fire why can’t these students use their freedoms to say whatever they want….

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Hz4ATtd-j/?igsh=MWI0bjF5ZTNvZ3V3NA==

PeasfullPerson · 18/05/2024 21:08

Gunnersforthecup · 18/05/2024 20:54

@PeasfullPerson Actually, I was more surprised that there were not earlier reports of vengeful fury more directly informing the behaviour of the Israelis. So surprised the other way than you seem to have been.

It is pretty easy to imagine that ,going to war after an extraordinary outrage in which over 1000 people died, actual soldiers might be angry, even if one has never been in an army, or committed violence oneself.

I was surprised by the level of indiscriminate killing and destruction to infrastructure, which to me was an obvious sign of vengeful fury. I dread to think of all the things that have happened under a blanket of war, and the black outs. I was also surprised by October 7th.
Even though I have very little faith in humanity and can see that both states are suffering from generations of trauma, I seem to hope for better, and remain shocked by acts of depravity.
It’s interesting how people have different perspectives.

Scirocco · 18/05/2024 23:20

Tripeandonions · 18/05/2024 19:03

Presently, most of the West Bank is administered by Israel though 42% of it is under varying degrees of autonomous rule by the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority.

So what is the Palestinian Authority doing about this apparent lawlessness.?

42% of their own territory has "varying degrees" of autonomy. Wow, how lucky they are to only have 58% of their territory fully under occupation due to having some degree of say in some things that happen in the other 42%.

Do you know what happens to a Palestinian who interferes with "apparent lawlessness" like this? They get shot and/or arrested. By 'settlers' or the IDF, who sometimes stand by and let this sort of thing happen, and sometimes get involved in facilitating it.

Dulra · 19/05/2024 00:03

Scirocco · 18/05/2024 23:20

42% of their own territory has "varying degrees" of autonomy. Wow, how lucky they are to only have 58% of their territory fully under occupation due to having some degree of say in some things that happen in the other 42%.

Do you know what happens to a Palestinian who interferes with "apparent lawlessness" like this? They get shot and/or arrested. By 'settlers' or the IDF, who sometimes stand by and let this sort of thing happen, and sometimes get involved in facilitating it.

42% of their own territory has "varying degrees" of autonomy. Wow, how lucky they are to only have 58% of their territory fully under occupation due to having some degree of say in some things that happen in the other 42%.

Yeah exactly. I couldn't name any other jurisdiction that would accept this. In northern Ireland there was massive resistance to the British army patrolling the streets. Kids out throwing petrol bombs at tanks but they weren't killed or murdered. Things weren't perfect the army were cruel but they demonstrated an element of restraint which escapes the IDF

Factsareimportantplease · 19/05/2024 05:56

Tripeandonions · 18/05/2024 10:26

@ScrollingLeaves Where there has been a whole court case brought against Israel with numerous lawyers arguing about whether or not what is happening to Gazans is genocide, or whether or not there is a risk of genocide, there is evidently no absolute clarity that there is no possibility of genocide taking place, let alone a reason to impute that a poster who thinks there is this possibility, is repeating a lie.

I would disagree with this.

If this was a 'lower' British Court SA would be possibly regarded as a "Vexous Litigant".

IMO SA wants the ICJ to micromanage the Gaza issue.

I would go as far as to say that IMO SA is military ally of Hamas and therefore has an ulterior motive.
Just look at the timing.
On 11 may 2024 just after SA had submitted another request for more constraints on Israel they hosted a delegation from Hamas.

I don't know what was discussed but it seems obvious to me that SA is aligning itself with a terrorist organisation

https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2024/05/israel-accuses-south-africa-aligning-hamas-distorting-facts-icj-case

Hosting Hamas.

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 07:33

@Dulra Let's look back and see how the situation came about and whose land it actually is.
In May 1948, the Jordan’s Arab Legion overran the eastern part of Jerusalem and occupied the Old City and its Holy Places. Following the 1948 War, Jordan continued to occupy East Jerusalem and what is now commonly referred to as the West Bank. This included the area the UN partition decision had allotted for an Arab state.Rather than seek independence for a Palestinian state, the Arabs from the area allotted for an Arab state in the UN partition resolution agreed to the unification of Palestine with Jordan and swore fealty to the king at the Jericho Conference on December 1, 1948.On April 11, 1950, elections were held for a new Jordanian parliament in which the Palestinian Arabs of the West Bank were equally represented. On April 24, 1950, the Jordan House of Deputies and House of Notables, in a joint session, adopted the following resolution annexing the West Bank and Jerusalem:
"Approval is granted to complete unity between the two banks of the Jordan, the Eastern and Western, and their amalgamation in one single state: The Hashemite Kingdom of the Jordan, under the crown of his Hashemite Majesty King Abdullah ben el-Husein the exalted."

King Abdullah acted over the objections of the Arab League.
Great Britain and Pakistan were the only countries that recognized Jordan’s annexation and occupation.
Two-thirds or more of King Abdullah’s subjects in the new combined Kingdom were Palestinians and one-third, or slightly less, native Jordanians. The total population was estimated at between 1 and 1.2 million, comprised of roughly one-third Palestinians resident in their own homes West of the Jordan River, one-third Jordanians and one-third refugees from parts of Palestine that are now within Israel. According to Jordan’s website, “All automatically became citizens of Jordan, a right that had first been offered in December 1949 to all Palestinians who wished to claim it.”

During the nineteen years of Jordanian administration, Jordan refused to honor its undertaking in the armistice agreement to accord free access to the Holy Places and to cultural institutions, and use of the Jewish cemetery on The Mount of Olives (Section III, Document 6, Article VIII, and Section V, subsection E, Documents 15 and 16). Jews were barred from the Old City and denied access to the Western Wall and other Holy Places. The Jewish Quarter in the Old City was destroyed; fifty-eight synagogues were also destroyed or desecrated. Thousands of tombstones in the Jewish cemetery on The Mount of Olives were destroyed to pave a road and build fences and latrines in Jordanian army camps.

During the Jordanian occupation, Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

After Israel reunified Jerusalem and captured the West Bank in the Six-Day War, King Hussein still insisted, “The truth is that Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan.”

According to analysts who support Israeli settlements, the presence of hostile, armed forces on the high ground of the West Bank would pose a security risk to the narrow Israeli land between the West Bank and the Mediterranean coast, which contains some of the country's biggest strategic assets, including Ben Gurion airport, the largest electric power station, and highly-populated cities.

Over half of the Israeli public believes settlements reinforce Israel's security.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 08:13

@Tripeandonions “Over half of the Israeli public believes settlements reinforce Israel's security.” I mean if this is what the Israeli public believes then that’s it, who gives a damn about the fact that it’s Palestinian land or it goes against international law, we all know international law doesn’t apply to Israel.

Whether it is Haganah, Irgun and/or Lehi the state of Israel was formed with the aid of terrorist organisation. People the British government saw as terrorists became Prime Ministers e.g Yitzhak Shamir.

If you are for peace for both Palestinians and Israelis you can’t be selective with your History and you can’t support settlements. Supporting one sides right to exist over the other means you are against a two state solution and peace. If this is the case just be proud of your opinion.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 08:18

Gantz speech https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Ij-7nLzN9/?igsh=MWNnbmtsOXp3MW5obQ==

Don’t think he realises that for Netanyahu just staying in power and in charge of this fascist government is more important than anything else. He s a dodgy corrupt politician who in time will be hailed a National hero for his murder of Palestinians and the additional land that there will be settlements on.

Instagram

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C7Ij-7nLzN9/?igsh=MWNnbmtsOXp3MW5obQ==

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 08:25

So, occupation and oppression are apparently ok, if the public in the occupying country think it's ok?

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 08:26

@DomPom47 I mean if this is what the Israeli public believes then that’s it, who gives a damn about the fact that it’s Palestinian land

Is it Palestinian land though?

Jordan illegally annexed it in 1948 from the British Mandate of Palestine. and those Palestinian Arabs living there accepted being ruled by Jordan.

They could have created a Palestinian State but chose not to.

In 1988 formally Jordan formally relinquished administrative control and left them all stateless by cancelling the Jordanian citizenship they had given them all in 1950.

Since the 6 day War in 1967. when it was captured by Israel has been regarded as "Disputed Territory".

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 08:35

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 08:25

So, occupation and oppression are apparently ok, if the public in the occupying country think it's ok?

I didn't say it was "OK".

I quoted Israeli opinion. which seems to be in line with the opinion of all other occupying powers/countries of the British Isles ie Italy (Romans) Danes, Germany - (via Germanic Tribes - Jutes, Saxons,) Denmark/Norway/Sweden (Vikings) and France (specifically Normandy).

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 08:41

Well, unless I were researching those periods of history for some reason, I'm not really that fussed what the Romans and the Vikings might have thought about invading and occupying places. Their views are irrelevant here.

What is widely recognised by international legal bodies, human rights organisations, etc is that occupation is not acceptable.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 08:41

@Tripeandonions yes it is Palestinian land, despite the Jordanians, despite the British, despite the current state of Israel and its action…. Palestinians are over 80% Canaanite who were there a millennia before Jews. No matter the justification Zionism is not morally justifiable for me. I mean think someone who has no historical link to the land can come and settle illegally yet Palestinians can’t.

Yet regardless of this I am still wanting a two state solution unlike some.

Despite the likes of Suella Braverman and her hate of Palestinians and her support of illegal settlements I am still wanting a state solution unlike some.

The audacity of some people to ignore the actions of the Israeli government, not sure if it is selective memory, pure hate of Palestinians or something else ….

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 08:45

yes it is Palestinian land, despite the Jordanians, despite the British, despite the current state of Israel and its action

So you say they have a historical claim?

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 08:49

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 08:45

yes it is Palestinian land, despite the Jordanians, despite the British, despite the current state of Israel and its action

So you say they have a historical claim?

I say there have a right to exist despite the fact that the state of Israel was formed by terrorist actions and terrorists.

I say they have a right to be peace and security and to live without the threat of genocide just like the Israelis.

I say they have a right to be recognised internationally just like Israel.

I say they need to be protected internationally just like Israel.

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 08:58

@DomPom47 I mean think someone who has no historical link to the land can come and settle illegally yet Palestinians can’t.

Let's use you argument for UK.

So should UK evict all those with Scandinavian ancestory? They invaded our land, murdered the British natives and took over the East Coast.

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 08:59

A Palestinian state has a right to exist. So does Israel.

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 09:00

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 08:58

@DomPom47 I mean think someone who has no historical link to the land can come and settle illegally yet Palestinians can’t.

Let's use you argument for UK.

So should UK evict all those with Scandinavian ancestory? They invaded our land, murdered the British natives and took over the East Coast.

I don't think you've understood what @DomPom47 has said.

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 09:13

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 09:00

I don't think you've understood what @DomPom47 has said.

I have and was applying the same logic to UK

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 09:14

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 08:58

@DomPom47 I mean think someone who has no historical link to the land can come and settle illegally yet Palestinians can’t.

Let's use you argument for UK.

So should UK evict all those with Scandinavian ancestory? They invaded our land, murdered the British natives and took over the East Coast.

Yes that’s clearly what I mean - forget evicting those with Scandinavian ancestors I think we should just group them together and kill them all! Seriously bless you for taking that from my post.

In practically most of my postings I am mentioning a two state solution and peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.
I m clear with my views on Hamas and my views of this Israeli government and its fascist members.
Unlike some posters I have the moral clarity to call our hate on both sides and ask for international law to be held by both sides.
Unlike some posters I am happy to call out politicians who don’t support international law and so are so blatantly against a two state solution and so against peace and security for both sides.

Factsareimportantplease · 19/05/2024 09:16

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 08:41

@Tripeandonions yes it is Palestinian land, despite the Jordanians, despite the British, despite the current state of Israel and its action…. Palestinians are over 80% Canaanite who were there a millennia before Jews. No matter the justification Zionism is not morally justifiable for me. I mean think someone who has no historical link to the land can come and settle illegally yet Palestinians can’t.

Yet regardless of this I am still wanting a two state solution unlike some.

Despite the likes of Suella Braverman and her hate of Palestinians and her support of illegal settlements I am still wanting a state solution unlike some.

The audacity of some people to ignore the actions of the Israeli government, not sure if it is selective memory, pure hate of Palestinians or something else ….

Jewish people have a historical link to the land.

They were driven out of other countries in the middle east who are now predominantly Muslim (they weren't a couple of thousand years ago though).

Scirocco · 19/05/2024 09:30

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 09:13

I have and was applying the same logic to UK

Persecuting and evicting people from their own homes, on their own land, in order to build illegal 'settlements' is not ok. Innocent people are having their homes destroyed and living under occupation, with no real repercussions for the people doing this.

That wouldn't be accepted in the UK or most other countries. It shouldn't be accepted anywhere.

DomPom47 · 19/05/2024 09:34

Factsareimportantplease · 19/05/2024 09:16

Jewish people have a historical link to the land.

They were driven out of other countries in the middle east who are now predominantly Muslim (they weren't a couple of thousand years ago though).

Yes they have a historical link to the land.
They have a right to co exist on that land.
They have a right to peace and security.
They have a right to infrastructure like schools and hospitals.
They have a right to live around freely and happily.

I think that Palestinians also need to have all these right.

This can’t happen without international law been followed and people recognising that the plight of Palestinians is dire.

E.g Settlements on Palestinian land is there to create a patch work of Palestinian territory and displace Palestinian people. If you create enough patch work like areas through settlements a Palestinian state will not be possible. A two state solution will not be possible.

Realistically are we going to see the hundreds of thousands of Israeli citizens in these illegal settlements (Violation of the 4th Geneva Convention - which Israeli government obviously disputes - because we know Israel doesn’t break international law!) give up their illegal homes? No.

Tripeandonions · 19/05/2024 09:40

@Scirocco The legality of Settlements is disputed.

It is a contentious and complicated issue.

On November 18, 2019, Secretary of State Michael Pompeosaid that
that “the establishment of Israeli civilian settlements in the West Bank is not per se inconsistent with international law.” The media inaccurately described this as a reversal of longstanding American policy. In truth, the record is more complicated.

Jews have lived in Judea and Samaria—the West Bank—since ancient times.

They were prohibited from living in the territories only during Jordan’s occupation from 1948 to 1967. Jews began to settle in the area again after it was captured by Israeli forces in the defensive war fought in 1967

The idea that these Jewish communities are illegal derives primarily from UN Resolutions and the International Court of Justice (ICJ), an arm of the UN.

The UN does not make legal determinations, only political ones tainted by the overwhelming anti-Israel majority.

  • *The ICJ “does not have jurisdiction over all disputes between UN member-states,” according to the Congressional Research Service. In fact, “with the exception of ‘advisory opinions,’ which are non-binding, the ICJ may only resolve legal disputes between nations that voluntarily agreed to its jurisdiction.”

Israel does not recognize the court’s jurisdiction on the settlement issue. Like other democracies, Israel has an independent judiciary. As Pompeo noted, its Supreme Court has “confirmed the legality of certain settlement activities and has concluded that others cannot be legally sustained.”

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