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Conflict in the Middle East
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42
ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 08:31

Finallyloggedin · 30/05/2024 23:08

https://x.com/uriweltmann/status/1795932106494783659?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Well done to the brave Israeli citizens standing up to the settlers who were trying to block the aid from getting through.

Very well done.

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 08:42

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 08:31

Very well done.

❤️ They are good people, aren’t they?

OP posts:
Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 08:44

https://x.com/abierkhatib/status/1796382362403832155?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Powerful speech by Matthew Cooke, Filmmaker

OP posts:
AhNowTed · 31/05/2024 09:39

Finallyloggedin · 30/05/2024 23:08

https://x.com/uriweltmann/status/1795932106494783659?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Well done to the brave Israeli citizens standing up to the settlers who were trying to block the aid from getting through.

One of the comments (google translated from Hebrew)

"A settler really said "don't you have a heart?" While trying to starve innocent five-year-old children who are going through a hellish situation"

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 10:24

BelleHathor · 30/05/2024 23:30

Yeah his article really covered the complexity of the situation.

This article was trending, it basically argues that the requirement for the Israeli Government to avoid civilian casualties is based on a Christian understanding of society.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/live-law-die-cross-israel

I’ve just read this, it’s absolutely terrifying.

OP posts:
Scirocco · 31/05/2024 11:47

It's based on not violating international law.

But when has that ever stopped people...

BelleHathor · 31/05/2024 11:57

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 10:24

I’ve just read this, it’s absolutely terrifying.

Extremely, it kind of explains how the Netanyahu government and the extremists continue to justify their actions.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 12:01

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 10:24

I’ve just read this, it’s absolutely terrifying.

Yes it is, and also fascinating.

If the principles based on Jewish religious beliefs (rather than the Western Christian ones) which he espouses were to dominate, or are dominating, Israeli decisions in regard to Palestinians - it would mean, or means, that there is a fundamental gulf of understanding between Israel and Western countries.
in spite of the West not being based on Muslim principles either.

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 12:59

Yes, when someone on here (not this thread, another one) said of all the Palestinians being killed “my conscience is clear” I guess this is what they meant?

I know lots of Jewish people are utterly appalled at what Israel are doing though. I guess this is on a similar level to the fundamental Christians who say “an eye for an eye”, etc? Or fundamental Islam?

it’s genuinely blown my mind. When I was reading it I kept on thinking he was listing all these awful concepts but was going to explain why they are awful at the end, but he just kept on getting worse!

OP posts:
Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 13:02

https://x.com/kahlissee/status/1796310147012423894?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Weirdly this is the first thing that just popped up on my timeline after writing the last post.

x.com

https://x.com/kahlissee/status/1796310147012423894?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

OP posts:
malengring · 31/05/2024 13:06

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 13:02

https://x.com/kahlissee/status/1796310147012423894?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Weirdly this is the first thing that just popped up on my timeline after writing the last post.

That's what all Zionists believe? Really?

Scirocco · 31/05/2024 13:09

BelleHathor · 30/05/2024 23:30

Yeah his article really covered the complexity of the situation.

This article was trending, it basically argues that the requirement for the Israeli Government to avoid civilian casualties is based on a Christian understanding of society.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/live-law-die-cross-israel

I'd be interested in other people's views on this article too, in terms of where these views sit politically in the current political spectrum in Israel and if these are as widespread as seems to be suggested.

(Not in a 'placing blame or responsibility on others' way, but in a 'seeking to understand' way)

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 13:14

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 12:59

Yes, when someone on here (not this thread, another one) said of all the Palestinians being killed “my conscience is clear” I guess this is what they meant?

I know lots of Jewish people are utterly appalled at what Israel are doing though. I guess this is on a similar level to the fundamental Christians who say “an eye for an eye”, etc? Or fundamental Islam?

it’s genuinely blown my mind. When I was reading it I kept on thinking he was listing all these awful concepts but was going to explain why they are awful at the end, but he just kept on getting worse!

I wasn’t quite ready for the shocking ending either.

It is all a very clever argument, he is evidently brilliant and I feel not clever enough to pick it apart let alone argue. I wonder though if even in the Old Testament a Jewish scholar might find counter arguments to his?

I am not 100 percent convinced of how much Christianity/New Testament really remains behind Western policies and general thought, but I suppose it may be there as a principle even though it may often be argued away, or forgotten, whenever expedient.

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 13:15

@Scirocco agreed. @malengring that was a fundamental Christian, I believe?

it would be great to hear more views on the article.

OP posts:
Scirocco · 31/05/2024 13:16

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 13:14

I wasn’t quite ready for the shocking ending either.

It is all a very clever argument, he is evidently brilliant and I feel not clever enough to pick it apart let alone argue. I wonder though if even in the Old Testament a Jewish scholar might find counter arguments to his?

I am not 100 percent convinced of how much Christianity/New Testament really remains behind Western policies and general thought, but I suppose it may be there as a principle even though it may often be argued away, or forgotten, whenever expedient.

I'm not convinced that dead horses are evidence that its ok to kill innocent people.

malengring · 31/05/2024 13:30

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 13:15

@Scirocco agreed. @malengring that was a fundamental Christian, I believe?

it would be great to hear more views on the article.

In the video yes. I was referring to the tweet:

This is what the Zionists really want....all of this land because they believe God promised it to them.

They want to ethnically cleanse millions of people for it.

Also we're constantly told that zionist is not a dogwhistle for Jews. But they believe God promised it to them kind of implies otherwise.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 13:47

Re that video clip:
I wonder what proportion of fundamentalist Christian Americans believe in the Bible so literally in regard to God given land for Jews? I have no idea at all. And do they think that land should become Israel’s now, or with the second coming?

Nor do I know, but would be interested to know, what proportion of Israelis feel that certain lands are a God given right (rather than related to the original agreement after WW11, and any subsequent conquering as a result of war).

I think I’ve read that some very religious Jews do not believe land in Israel should be fought for by Israel, as it can only come with the Messiah. That may be confusion on my part though.

Kindatired · 31/05/2024 15:30

I was puzzled by the title of the publication- it is an American Jewish magazine- not the British Catholic newspaper of the same name . Presumably both are read almost exclusively by people who enjoy reading articles that justify what they think already.

There is a huge divergence of opinion on this conflict between those from a Christian tradition whose world view was framed by educators steeped in liberation theology and those whose background lies in American conservative Christianity.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

I think Mr England may be right about an underlying difference in world view between Judaism and Christianity. I find it incomprehensible that pro Israeli posters can just disregard the numbers, the actual decimal point in terms of deaths and the lack of acceptance that Hamas is not an existential threat.

I think his views reflect borderline Jewish supremacism and that this article gives insights into far right Jewish thinking.But one of the great things about Judaism is that it is a religion that encourages debate- something that is knitted into modern society that we have all benefitted from-science, literature, finance, entertainment, law.The world would be a different place if this wonderful culture of open mindedness that is uniquely Jewish didn’t exist and woven itself in all the best aspects of modern life.So it would be wrong to say his thoughts represent anyone other than himself, just as if we assumed every Muslim person thought the same and we could quickly post counter arguments directly opposing his views by equally bright secular Jewish people.

His argument to justify massive current civilian casualties to prevent possible future civilian casualties doesn’t wash. This is genocidal thinking. His argument that Judaism encourages group identity has been shown by sociologists as a factor in perseverance against adversity so I think it probably holds water in explaining attitudes. But taken too far it can also lead to genocidal thinking- the type of tribalism that dehumanises those outside the group.The type if tribalism that allows collective punishment to be tolerated.

The man is a physicist, not an ethicist so interesting as his thoughts are, they seem to be a mere vehicle to justify his existing prejudices.

The theological arguments seem very weak. I think he would do well to go back to the commandments given by Moses. These commandments have a basis in universal truth-people who live by them generally better lives. When you get into how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, you can justify almost anything.

Liberation theology - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberation_theology

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 19:30

Thank you @Kindatired , very insightful post.

@malengring I was under the impression that someone could be Jewish but not Zionist, as well as Zionist but not Jewish. (I have read before that there are lots of Christian Zionists in America), is this not right?

OP posts:
Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 20:15

https://x.com/etanetan23/status/1796533547236507954?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

The poster says that some reserves are refusing to go into Rafah, not sure if that is what the note says (as it’s in Hebrew), would be great if anyone could confirm? Many thanks

x.com

https://x.com/etanetan23/status/1796533547236507954?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

OP posts:
Scirocco · 31/05/2024 20:24

That's beyond my translation skills, I'm afraid. It looks like they're saying they won't report for duty but I'm missing a lot of what's written... Hopefully someone can translate? I'm not sure who to ask though.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 22:00

Scirocco · 31/05/2024 13:16

I'm not convinced that dead horses are evidence that its ok to kill innocent people.

I’ve just been reading more about that justification for killing innocent people
by Rabbi Yochai (2nd Century C.E.) and cited by England.

A modern Rabbi Engelmeyer writing in 2010 in
https://jewishstandard.timesofisrael.com/there-is-no-ae%cb%9cotherae/ says,

The most extreme such dictate comes from Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, who said it was a mitzvah to “kill even the nicest among the gentiles.” (See M’khilta d’Rabbi Yishmael, B’shallach Chapter 2; also, the Jerusalem Talmud tractate Kiddushin 4:11.) This comment most recently surfaced in a different context – in the writings of the radical Chabad rabbi Yitzchak Ginzberg, who uses it to justify the killing of innocent civilians in Gaza.

How – and why – did Rabbi Shimon, as he is often referred to in the Talmud, reach such a harsh decision?

According to the Torah in the parashah we will read next Shabbat, Pharaoh gathered “600 chosen chariots” in order to run down the Israelites in the wilderness. (See Exodus 14:7.) Yet, if all of Egypt’s livestock was killed during the plagues, where did the horses come from to draw those chariots? As the Torah reported regarding one plague in the parashah we read last Shabbat, “he who feared the word of the Lord among the servants of Pharaoh made his servants and his cattle flee into the houses.”(See Exodus 9:20.)

In other words, those Egyptians who feared the God of Israel saved their horses and Pharaoh used those horses to try to kill the People of Israel. Reasoned Bar Yochai, even the best and most well meaning among non-Jews endanger Jewish lives.

In truth, though, the Torah teaches no so such lesson.………

and,

Bar Yochai’s opinion, however, was never normative. Thus, for example, the 13th-century French commentator Rabbi M’nachem ben Shlomo Ha-Me’iri states, “In our times, no one observes these practices, not a ga’on, not a rabbi, not a sage, not a pietist nor even an alleged pietist.” (See the introduction to the section on idol worship in his Talmud commentary Bet Ha-b’chirah.)…..

and in summing up paragraphs this Rabbi writes,

When Rabbi Akiva said that “‘love your neighbor as yourself’ [Leviticus 19:18] is the great principle of the Torah,” another of his students, Ben Azzai, disagreed. “‘This is the record of adam’s line’ [Genesis 5:1] is the greater principle,” he said. (“Adam” in Genesis means “human”; it is not a proper name.)

What Ben Azzai meant is clear. Obviously, “This is the record of adam’s line” is not a principle at all, but a statement of fact. If that fact is understood, however, then there is no need for any kind of principle relating to how one person treats another. If all human beings are descended from the original unique human being created by God – if we are all descended from “the adam” – then regardless of who we are, what we believe, what color our skin is, what continent we live on, what language we speak, we are all brothers and sisters.

When one’s brother or sister or other family member is in trouble, we must move heaven and earth, if necessary, to help.

As God’s “kingdom of priests and holy nation,” our job is to teach by example a moral and ethical code that, as Ben Azzai said, is summed up by a simple statement, “This is the record of adam’s line.”

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 22:03

Finallyloggedin · 31/05/2024 19:30

Thank you @Kindatired , very insightful post.

@malengring I was under the impression that someone could be Jewish but not Zionist, as well as Zionist but not Jewish. (I have read before that there are lots of Christian Zionists in America), is this not right?

Edited

Finallyloggedin · Today 19:30
Thank you @Kindatired , very insightful post.

Yes, thank you.

Scirocco · 31/05/2024 22:04

Yeah, I'm going to stick with it not being ok to kill innocent people.

ScrollingLeaves · 31/05/2024 22:20

Scirocco · 31/05/2024 22:04

Yeah, I'm going to stick with it not being ok to kill innocent people.

😌So much simpler, and you don’t need to be a Rhodes Scholar and physics professor to know it, rather than writhe
about it in The Tablet.

Finallyloggedin · Today 20:15
https://x.com/etanetan23/status/1796533547236507954?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

The poster says that some reserves are refusing to go into Rafah, not sure if that is what the note says (as it’s in Hebrew), would be great if anyone could confirm? Many thanks

This is brave of them.

Is it possible, I wonder, that this has nudged Biden about the hostage release and ceasefire 3 stage deal just announced?

x.com

https://x.com/etanetan23/status/1796533547236507954?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog