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Conflict in the Middle East
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42
Dulra · 16/05/2024 13:25

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 13:13

Who did not know, Dulra?

Do you mean the 90% Palestinian population at that time, or the mainly European Jewish colonising settlers ( apart from the 2% indigenous Jews) who thought of this as their homeland from ancient times?

I was not quite clear from your post. I agree it is depressing as it seems all round disaster was inevitable.

Sorry I meant the Palestinians. I think it was the reference to the university in Jerusalem that got me, knowing now how persecuted Palestinians are in the west bank and how little opportunity they have for personal advancement

Finallyloggedin · 16/05/2024 19:30

Ive read through the discussion quickly and I’m really interested in everyone’s points. I’m going to read it again properly later and look at all the links.

in the meantime I just checked twitter quickly and saw this https://x.com/offtheball/status/1790998512110391437?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog i find it so moving and a happy link for once, although it has made me cry! 🍉❤️🇵🇸🍉❤️🇵🇸

@dulra, I’m sure you have mentioned that you are from Ireland, so I thought you would like to see it too

https://x.com/offtheball/status/1790998512110391437?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

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Dulra · 16/05/2024 20:08

Finallyloggedin · 16/05/2024 19:30

Ive read through the discussion quickly and I’m really interested in everyone’s points. I’m going to read it again properly later and look at all the links.

in the meantime I just checked twitter quickly and saw this https://x.com/offtheball/status/1790998512110391437?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog i find it so moving and a happy link for once, although it has made me cry! 🍉❤️🇵🇸🍉❤️🇵🇸

@dulra, I’m sure you have mentioned that you are from Ireland, so I thought you would like to see it too

Thanks for sharing. The match was last night it was Palestine women's team against Bohemians which is a soccer club in Dublin and a massive support to Palestinians for years. It was in aid of Gaza and to mark the anniversary of the naqba. First time Palestine women's team have played in Europe. Some pictures on link below

www.thejournal.ie/bohs-v-palestine-6380966-May2024/

Finallyloggedin · 17/05/2024 11:20

Thank you Dulra, I love those pictures ❤️

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IbisDancer · 18/05/2024 21:40

@Scirocco
Interesting you mention Mark Twain (pen name of Samuel Clements)
Are you aware of his ‘War Prayer’?

“ . . . O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells . . . help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst. . . .”

Finallyloggedin · 19/05/2024 08:44

Arnaud Bertrand:

“If you are still under the illusion that mainstream media outlets aren't propaganda apparatus, you should absolutely read this: breachmedia.ca/cbc-whitewashe…

It's undoubtedly one of the best witness reports I've ever read on how Western media go about manufacturing consent, in this instance in favor of Israel.

Written by a half-Jewish producer at CBC (Canada's public broadcaster), she describes in minute details how the Israeli narrative is promoted unquestionably and how Palestinian viewpoints are systematically erased.

The interesting aspect to me is how insidious it is. There is no blunt censorship with clear rules and red lines. It's all about seemingly innocuous decisions like "we don't have time to fact check this IDF spokesperson making obviously wrong statements" or "before we let this Palestinian guest on air, we need to do an impossible investigation into their claims", the combination of which leading in the end to a clear narrative.

What you realize is that there is nothing even remotely resembling a quest for truth there. It is instead a process to project unto the public the personal biases of the leadership of these media outlets, who undoubtedly have been hired for the very reason that they had these biases.

You could even forgive many journalists for not noticing they work for a propaganda apparatus because many of them undoubtedly share these biases, so from their standpoint they are reporting "the truth". But if ever someone comes to see things differently, such as the author of this article, they very quickly come to realize that truth is not the objective here.”

https://breachmedia.ca/cbc-whitewashed-israels-crimes-gaza-firsthand/

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IbisDancer · 20/05/2024 12:30

@Finallyloggedin good post
I have been observing the UN death toll dispute with increasing frustration. I don’t understand what the issue was. It seems manufactured to me.

The UN used to show the death toll of men, women, and children by the number of dead bodies they had counted.

The UN then did another death toll of men, women, children and elderly by the number of dead bodies that they have identified who they were- their name, sex, age and ID#

There was a propaganda push where people were supposedly confused and thought identifying a dead body, was identifying a body as dead instead of identifying, well their identity, who they were. So there was a big fake news about the UN cutting the death toll of women and children in half. Rubbish.

It has been somewhat clarified BUT some are still thinking that the ratio of men to women to children’s bodies identified as to who they were means the death toll ratios showing more women and children killed was wrong.

It wasn’t wrong, both are right and the reason why a higher % of men’s bodies have been identified than women’s bodies and a higher % of women’s bodies than children’s bodies is for one simple reason.

The bigger a human you are, the more of a body or larger pieces of a body there is left to identify who the body was when looking at the human remains post shelling or bombing or decomposition in a mass grave.

I worked on disaster recovery teams…this is the sad fact.

The less there is of a body, the longer it takes to identify who that body was.

Mens bodies are the biggest, so they are the easiest and fastest to identify- match to an identity of a man

Children’s bodies are the smallest, so they are the hardest and slowest to indentify- match to an identity of a child. In addition children usually have the fewest identity records on file unlike adults. This makes it even harder.

Scirocco · 20/05/2024 12:35

@IbisDancer women and children are also more likely to have been killed together and in airstrikes on domestic areas which cause bodies to lie trapped and decomposing under rubble. And if a child is killed along with their parent(s) or guardian, who is left to identify them...?

IbisDancer · 20/05/2024 12:42

Scirocco · 20/05/2024 12:35

@IbisDancer women and children are also more likely to have been killed together and in airstrikes on domestic areas which cause bodies to lie trapped and decomposing under rubble. And if a child is killed along with their parent(s) or guardian, who is left to identify them...?

Yes, this too. Entire families have been wiped out. Palestinian parents have been writing their child’s name on their arms and legs so that there is a chance they can be identified if killed.

And also there are reports of stray pets and rodents eating at the bodies. Feral dogs are digging up bodies in the mass graves and cemeteries. It isn’t just the people who are starving.

IbisDancer · 20/05/2024 12:50

As for the disasters I have worked on- aeroplane crashes, hurricanes, tsunamis and earthquakes. Never have I had to attempt to identify who the bodies were while being bombed, shelled or prevented access to areas with bodies while working with no supplies, equipment, water, or electricity.

What the humanitarian workers and Gazan civil servants are up against just to provide a death toll within the usual bounds of accuracy is astounding.

Finallyloggedin · 21/05/2024 06:59

@IbisDancer thank you for all the information, it’s very moving and heartbreaking. I can’t believe that people are still trying to deny the numbers, it’s truly sick.

When many Israelis who don’t realise the extent of the horror that is actually taking place, when they finally get to see what has been done in their name I don’t know how they will live with themselves.

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Finallyloggedin · 21/05/2024 07:03

https://x.com/middleeasteye/status/1792753387655589917?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog Brave Israeli peace activists trying to ensure that the aid gets through.

x.com

https://x.com/middleeasteye/status/1792753387655589917?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

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Kindatired · 21/05/2024 16:45

@Finallyloggedin It’s hard to take in even as an outsider. If you went to funeral of a child killed in Gaza every day it would take 37 years according to global health experts Dr Trish Scanlon

Finallyloggedin · 21/05/2024 18:48

@Kindatired its absolutely heartbreaking 💔 and it’s all just so needless and pointless too. Indescribable suffering and for what?

I read something recently which I have thought back to several times - Israel has now become one of the main reference points for an example of causing intolerable human pain and suffering. People will compare awful acts by saying “that’s the kind of thing the Israelis would do”.

I still don’t think the average Israeli comprehends the heinous war crimes being committed in their name.

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Finallyloggedin · 21/05/2024 19:04

Just saw this online from BDS -

BREAKING: Norway’s second largest asset manager, Storebrand, divested holdings in @IBM_Corporation worth $141 million due to their supply of a biometric database to Israel "used to implement apartheid" and "discrimination and segregation of Palestinians".

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SmugglersHaunt · 21/05/2024 19:20

Weird how there haven’t been similar posts about any other wars.

Assad’s murder of over 300,000 Syrians.

China’s murder of Uyghurs. Over sixteen thousand mosques been destroyed and hundreds of thousands of children have been forcibly separated from their parents in China.

15k killed in the latest war in Sudan, with 7 million displaced.

Approx. 230,000 killed in the war in Yemen.

Plus countless other wars, documented and undocumented.

Not a peep about any of that.

But no Jews = no news.

BibiSuzanne · 21/05/2024 19:30

Here we go again. Can't say anything about Palestinians without having campaigned about other causes. IT IS NOT ABOUT JEWS! Zionist Jews happen to be the other side.
Must I never say anything about my people being displaced or slaughtered because you think I haven't spoken up or campaigned about other causes.

Scirocco · 21/05/2024 19:30

@SmugglersHaunt The other conflicts you've mentioned should definitely get more attention in the media.

What have you done to try to raise awareness or directly help people in such conflicts; would you have any advice or recommendations? Personally, I've provided medical assistance and worked with refugees and survivors of torture, raised funds, campaigned, boycotted things, and written about issues. If you think similar threads would be helpful for other conflicts, you could start them. This thread should remain on topic, though.

Scirocco · 21/05/2024 19:32

@BibiSuzanne I'm sorry you have to read these things. You are not alone.

BibiSuzanne · 21/05/2024 19:34

Scirocco · 21/05/2024 19:32

@BibiSuzanne I'm sorry you have to read these things. You are not alone.

Thank you as Scirocco. It hurts so much when people deliberately don't want to see the truth.

TheFirmBiscuit · 21/05/2024 19:35

SmugglersHaunt · 21/05/2024 19:20

Weird how there haven’t been similar posts about any other wars.

Assad’s murder of over 300,000 Syrians.

China’s murder of Uyghurs. Over sixteen thousand mosques been destroyed and hundreds of thousands of children have been forcibly separated from their parents in China.

15k killed in the latest war in Sudan, with 7 million displaced.

Approx. 230,000 killed in the war in Yemen.

Plus countless other wars, documented and undocumented.

Not a peep about any of that.

But no Jews = no news.

Probably because many posters here don't have family links to those conflicts in any numbers. I get the impression that quite a few posters both on the Israeli and Palestinian sides have personal links to both communities and it has been headline news in all the mainstream press for many months now and so it will inevitably be more dominant than those terrible injustices you have referenced.

Kindatired · 21/05/2024 19:57

@SmugglersHaunt
The are terrible human rights abuses in China and Sudan.But the pressure of Public opinion from the developed anglophone world is unlikely to cut off the supply of weapons to the combatants.
Furthermore, the intensity of the casualties on a daily basis exceeds any conflict in modern times. 20,000 children have been orphaned in the space of about 6 months. Bodies have yet emit be retrieved - they could be heard calling for help until they died in some cases
The numbers for Sudan and other conflict situations were presented today by a global health expert in the Royal College of Physicians In Dublin. The numbers were presented because your comparisons are frequently brought up in this context. I didn’t manage to grab a snapshot but the casualties definitely a lot lot worse. These figures were not challenged by global health experts, public health academics, statisticians or epidemiologists. So I can see where you are coming from , but these situations need threads of their own. One persons suffering cannot diminish another’s

TheFirmBiscuit · 21/05/2024 20:10

Kindatired · 21/05/2024 19:57

@SmugglersHaunt
The are terrible human rights abuses in China and Sudan.But the pressure of Public opinion from the developed anglophone world is unlikely to cut off the supply of weapons to the combatants.
Furthermore, the intensity of the casualties on a daily basis exceeds any conflict in modern times. 20,000 children have been orphaned in the space of about 6 months. Bodies have yet emit be retrieved - they could be heard calling for help until they died in some cases
The numbers for Sudan and other conflict situations were presented today by a global health expert in the Royal College of Physicians In Dublin. The numbers were presented because your comparisons are frequently brought up in this context. I didn’t manage to grab a snapshot but the casualties definitely a lot lot worse. These figures were not challenged by global health experts, public health academics, statisticians or epidemiologists. So I can see where you are coming from , but these situations need threads of their own. One persons suffering cannot diminish another’s

The press really isn't interested in those conflicts or they would report on them. And they are or were very keen on Ukraine. They make the news weather so to speak and most people take their cues and passing interest from that. I don't think it's any more sinister than that. Maybe the acres of newsprint devoted to the royal fmaily or empty headed celebrities could give way to more serious reporting. But I doubt it.

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TheFirmBiscuit · 21/05/2024 22:30

Deep,dark and very true. Netanhayu has probably single handedly destroyed the prospect of liberal, open , democratic Israel for the forseeable future. Like Trump it is a pact with the devil of a narcisistic habitually ingrained corrupt liar who lays siege and pillages the institutions of the state he confesses to love and protect but ultimately degrades, corrupts and destroys for his own sociopathic gain. This current generation is lost, Hamas' day of rage has seen to that, no doubt provoking Israel, with deliberate intention to am inchoate rage. Gideon Levi is my goto guy for his take on it all but he is sadly a voice in an ever increasing wilderness, but he finds the strength to be wearingly angry but never gives in to despair. We can learn a lot from such voices.

Israeli hasbara, or public diplomacy, does not try to deny the reality in Gaza. It only makes the claim of antisemitism: Why pick on us? What about Sudan and Yemen? The logic doesn't hold: A driver who is stopped for speeding won't get off by arguing that he's not the only one. The crimes and the criminals remain. Israel will never prosecute anyone for these offenses. It never has, neither for its wars nor its occupation. On a good day, it will prosecute a soldier who stole some Palestinian's credit card.

They cannot be allowed to go unpunished. Nor is it possible to blame only Hamas, even if it has a part in the crimes. We are the ones who killed, starved, displaced, and destroyed on such a massive scale. Someone must be brought to justice for this. Netanyahu is the head, of course. The picture of him imprisoned in The Hague together with the defense minister and the IDF chief of staff is the stuff of nightmares to every Israeli. And yet, it is probably warranted.

It is highly unlikely, however. The pressure being exerted on the court by Israel and the United States are enormous (and wrong). But scare tactics can be important. If the officials actually refrain from traveling abroad in the next few years, if they actually live in fear of what may come, we can be sure that in the next war, they'll think twice before sending the military on campaigns of death and destruction of such insane proportions. We can find a little comfort in that, at least.

The killing and destruction in Gaza has gotten Israel in way over its head. It is the worst catastrophe the state has ever faced. Someone led it there – no, not antisemitism, but rather its leaders and military officers. If not for them, it wouldn't have turned so quickly after October 7 from a cherished country that inspired compassion into a pariah state.

https://archive.ph/T8ECO