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Conflict in the Middle East
Thread gallery
42
OP posts:
AhNowTed · 14/05/2024 08:08

Great thread with some fantastic links, even if the content horribly depressing.

Finallyloggedin · 14/05/2024 19:29

https://x.com/ori_goldberg/status/1790272064856707472?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Israeli academic on the impact of Israeli citizens support for the genocide.

https://x.com/ori_goldberg/status/1790272064856707472?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

OP posts:
Finallyloggedin · 14/05/2024 19:32

@AhNowTed thank you and I know what you mean. 😭 I wish I could post something happier.

It is heartening, at least, to read that some Israelis are doing their very best to get the message through to their fellow citizens and make them understand that they are aiding and abetting the genocide.

OP posts:
BelleHathor · 14/05/2024 19:49

Finallyloggedin · 14/05/2024 19:29

https://x.com/ori_goldberg/status/1790272064856707472?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

Israeli academic on the impact of Israeli citizens support for the genocide.

Excellent tweet, he gets it wholeheartedly and there are more people waking up to the fact that after this is over there will be unsavoury groups who will use pictures like that to actually spread real hatred.

P.s. You are doing an excellent job ❤.

Every little bit helps the people just trying to survive right now, you are their voice xx

Finallyloggedin · 14/05/2024 19:57

@BelleHathor thank you so much, I really appreciate you saying that ❤️

you also do an amazing job, I always find your posts really informative xx

OP posts:
Finallyloggedin · 14/05/2024 22:11

https://x.com/alon_mizrahi/status/1790304674542735375?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

An interesting piece by Alon Mizrahi, Jewish Arab Israeli writer, on his view of collective trauma:

“Collective trauma is always fake and manufactured. Let me explain why and how. It's going to be a little provocative, but not uninteresting (and, as Twitter virtually stopped showing my posts to new people, make sure you follow if this happens to bounce into your feed).

Not only is collective trauma fake and manufactured, I say, it is also one of the most destructive and psychologically effective forms of perpetuating white colonial privilege and white supremacy.

To demonstrate my point, let's look back on 9/11, the last grand big trauma the American collective endured, or, as I believe and can easily show you, was brainwashed into experiencing as a collective trauma.

You remember that day, right? You also remember how it was covered. Never a more dramatic and apocalyptic live coverage of anything was ever seen. For hours on end, mentally broken, teary-eyed and breathless news broadcasts showed every millisecond of it again and again and again, and it went on for days and months, or maybe years.

Now imagine 9/11 happening a century earlier (for purposes of this exercise, we'll hypothesize the existence of huge, jet-powers airplanes in the early 20th century).

How would 9/11 be experienced in an era before live video coverage? By the time it reached Wyoming or California, it would naturally be surpassed by local and more urgent stories (a train wrack; a new goldmine discovered; a baby born to a couple in their 50', and so on).

I could elaborate a lot more on this point, but I think it is rather clear and intuitive. And what it means is the public trauma and urgency of 9/11 were not the result of the events themselves, but of the means by which they were mediated to the wider public.

A consciousness generated by artificial means is never authentic.

Naturally, 9/11 would only be a trauma for people who were involved in it firsthand. But it would be such a political waste to let it be that, right? For maximum effect (both the generation of manufactured collective trauma and the augmentation of politically motivated mass media as the source of consciousness), 9/11 had to be given a meaning so sweeping it would immediately negate any coolheadedness and human context, thus allowing the powerful establishments to operate free from criticism.

The same thing happened in Israel on October 7.

To bring this understanding even closer to home, I'll tell you about a conversation I had with Ruhama Marton, an Israeli psychiatrist, veteran radical left-winger, and founder of Israel's Physicians for Human Rights.

Ruhama, an 88-year-old woman with memories of life in Palestine before the Nakba (she once told me, in an interview I did with her, about the Palestinian boy and girl who were her childhood friends in Tel Aviv, and who suddenly, and heartbreakingly, disappeared one day in 1948), is one of the brightest political thinkers I ever knew, and I consider her a teacher. A true and actual radical.

Some weeks after October 7 I called Ruhama to talk about things, as I had very few people I could actually do that with. I told her I was feeling it was getting insane, and I remember telling her what I saw as a neverending loop of 'look what they have done, look what they have done, just look what they have done', and then I added 'to us'.

'You have to stress the 'to us' part', Ruhama told me. It is crucial.

This is indeed crucial, and if you look at the way 9/11 was covered, you can break down the different psychological mechanisms at play, of which this was a strategic one.

It was, indeed, a neverending loop of 'look what they have done to us'.

By repeating and repeating this endlessly, a clear divide is created: we are just heroic first responders, victims, and shocked witnesses. They, on the other hand,oh those human animals.

One side is defined by pure human and pure emotions and feelings misleadingly contextualized in language, culture, and geography, the other by nefarious actions from which you are to deduce their inhuman, bloodthirsty barbarism.

So the generated collective trauma was used in real-time to make them appear alien both in terms of political relationships (this could not be a response to something we did), but also morally: look what they have done to us, who have always been so moral, communal and pure.

You can tell collective trauma is fake also by simply looking at who is entitled to this free pass on everything. The US went into collective trauma after Pearl Harbor and was justified in nuking Japan, and also on 9/11, and further justified in killing millions in the Middle East.

Jews were traumatized by their history and so should be forgiven the Nakba, and further traumatized by October 7 and justified in genocide.

But have you ever heard anyone else being described in terms of acting out of collective trauma? Has it even been used for black people in the US or anywhere else? For Muslims, who have no right to be traumatized as a collective, no matter what is done to them?

No one who isn't a white colonizer is afforded the privilege of this card. Not even Russia, a definitely white culture, after being almost totally annihilated in ww2, and losing tens of millions of soldiers and citizens. You never hear 'leave them alone, they are traumatized'.

Finally, and especially about Zionism. the very mention of trauma is a joke. Zionism had all its plans for Palestinians finalized years before the holocaust. It dehumanized them and had a deep disdain for their way of life and who they were even before the first Zionist settlers landed in Palestine.

This was never about collective trauma. It was always about a sense of supremacy and entitlement that every now and then finds new excuses and justifications for its psychopathy: sometimes it's 'scientifically-proven' racial superiority, sometimes it's a religious mission, and sometimes it's 'collective trauma'. But it is always fake, deceitful, manufactured, and murderous.”

https://x.com/alon_mizrahi/status/1790304674542735375?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

OP posts:
OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 15/05/2024 23:19

Finallyloggedin · 14/05/2024 22:11

https://x.com/alon_mizrahi/status/1790304674542735375?s=61&t=nilGqPeurpC5xVqZAZdZog

An interesting piece by Alon Mizrahi, Jewish Arab Israeli writer, on his view of collective trauma:

“Collective trauma is always fake and manufactured. Let me explain why and how. It's going to be a little provocative, but not uninteresting (and, as Twitter virtually stopped showing my posts to new people, make sure you follow if this happens to bounce into your feed).

Not only is collective trauma fake and manufactured, I say, it is also one of the most destructive and psychologically effective forms of perpetuating white colonial privilege and white supremacy.

To demonstrate my point, let's look back on 9/11, the last grand big trauma the American collective endured, or, as I believe and can easily show you, was brainwashed into experiencing as a collective trauma.

You remember that day, right? You also remember how it was covered. Never a more dramatic and apocalyptic live coverage of anything was ever seen. For hours on end, mentally broken, teary-eyed and breathless news broadcasts showed every millisecond of it again and again and again, and it went on for days and months, or maybe years.

Now imagine 9/11 happening a century earlier (for purposes of this exercise, we'll hypothesize the existence of huge, jet-powers airplanes in the early 20th century).

How would 9/11 be experienced in an era before live video coverage? By the time it reached Wyoming or California, it would naturally be surpassed by local and more urgent stories (a train wrack; a new goldmine discovered; a baby born to a couple in their 50', and so on).

I could elaborate a lot more on this point, but I think it is rather clear and intuitive. And what it means is the public trauma and urgency of 9/11 were not the result of the events themselves, but of the means by which they were mediated to the wider public.

A consciousness generated by artificial means is never authentic.

Naturally, 9/11 would only be a trauma for people who were involved in it firsthand. But it would be such a political waste to let it be that, right? For maximum effect (both the generation of manufactured collective trauma and the augmentation of politically motivated mass media as the source of consciousness), 9/11 had to be given a meaning so sweeping it would immediately negate any coolheadedness and human context, thus allowing the powerful establishments to operate free from criticism.

The same thing happened in Israel on October 7.

To bring this understanding even closer to home, I'll tell you about a conversation I had with Ruhama Marton, an Israeli psychiatrist, veteran radical left-winger, and founder of Israel's Physicians for Human Rights.

Ruhama, an 88-year-old woman with memories of life in Palestine before the Nakba (she once told me, in an interview I did with her, about the Palestinian boy and girl who were her childhood friends in Tel Aviv, and who suddenly, and heartbreakingly, disappeared one day in 1948), is one of the brightest political thinkers I ever knew, and I consider her a teacher. A true and actual radical.

Some weeks after October 7 I called Ruhama to talk about things, as I had very few people I could actually do that with. I told her I was feeling it was getting insane, and I remember telling her what I saw as a neverending loop of 'look what they have done, look what they have done, just look what they have done', and then I added 'to us'.

'You have to stress the 'to us' part', Ruhama told me. It is crucial.

This is indeed crucial, and if you look at the way 9/11 was covered, you can break down the different psychological mechanisms at play, of which this was a strategic one.

It was, indeed, a neverending loop of 'look what they have done to us'.

By repeating and repeating this endlessly, a clear divide is created: we are just heroic first responders, victims, and shocked witnesses. They, on the other hand,oh those human animals.

One side is defined by pure human and pure emotions and feelings misleadingly contextualized in language, culture, and geography, the other by nefarious actions from which you are to deduce their inhuman, bloodthirsty barbarism.

So the generated collective trauma was used in real-time to make them appear alien both in terms of political relationships (this could not be a response to something we did), but also morally: look what they have done to us, who have always been so moral, communal and pure.

You can tell collective trauma is fake also by simply looking at who is entitled to this free pass on everything. The US went into collective trauma after Pearl Harbor and was justified in nuking Japan, and also on 9/11, and further justified in killing millions in the Middle East.

Jews were traumatized by their history and so should be forgiven the Nakba, and further traumatized by October 7 and justified in genocide.

But have you ever heard anyone else being described in terms of acting out of collective trauma? Has it even been used for black people in the US or anywhere else? For Muslims, who have no right to be traumatized as a collective, no matter what is done to them?

No one who isn't a white colonizer is afforded the privilege of this card. Not even Russia, a definitely white culture, after being almost totally annihilated in ww2, and losing tens of millions of soldiers and citizens. You never hear 'leave them alone, they are traumatized'.

Finally, and especially about Zionism. the very mention of trauma is a joke. Zionism had all its plans for Palestinians finalized years before the holocaust. It dehumanized them and had a deep disdain for their way of life and who they were even before the first Zionist settlers landed in Palestine.

This was never about collective trauma. It was always about a sense of supremacy and entitlement that every now and then finds new excuses and justifications for its psychopathy: sometimes it's 'scientifically-proven' racial superiority, sometimes it's a religious mission, and sometimes it's 'collective trauma'. But it is always fake, deceitful, manufactured, and murderous.”

That is a very interesting thesis about the West manipulating collective trauma in order to sanction massive disproportionate counter-attacks to crush others.

But, do you know more detail about the points in this paragraph you quoted , regarding the Zionists dehumanising Palestinians even then? What about the other way around, mightn’t that possibly be the case too?

I’d feel uneasy just taking this paragraph to be true, but do not know anything about the history,

Finally, and especially about Zionism. the very mention of trauma is a joke. Zionism had all its plans for Palestinians finalized years before the holocaust. It dehumanized them and had a deep disdain for their way of life and who they were even before the first Zionist settlers landed in Palestine

Finallyloggedin · 16/05/2024 06:42

Thanks @ScrollingLeaves , that paragraph surprised me too. I think it is an interesting assessment but I’m not sure if he has taken the conclusion too far. I know the Balfour declaration happened in circa 1917 (definitely before ww2) so I think there were already plans in place but I have no idea on the propaganda/dehumanising. I guess it probably did go on beforehand but I don’t know enough about it. ill try to look into it some more but I do definitely agree that it is a tricky paragraph.

OP posts:
OP posts:
IbisDancer · 16/05/2024 09:52

Pardon if this isn’t an appropriate addition.

An Interior Department staffer on Wednesday became the first Jewish political appointee to publicly resign in protest of U.S. support for Israel’s war in Gaza. Lily Greenberg Call, a special assistant to the chief of staff in the Interior Department, accused President Joe Biden of using Jews to justify U.S. policy in the conflict.

Her resignation letter - I cannot find full text, just quotes from it
Greenberg Call said: "I can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration amidst President Biden’s disastrous, continued support for Israel’s genocide in Gaza"."What I have learned from my Jewish tradition is that every life is precious. That we are obligated to stand up for those facing violence and oppression, and to question authority in the face of injustice,"
“However, I can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration,” she wrote.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Call pointed to comments by Biden, including at a White House Hanukkah event where he said “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe” and at an event at Washington’s Holocaust Memorial last week in which he said the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attacks that triggered the war were driven by an “ancient desire to wipe out the Jewish people.”

“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence.”

“I think the president has to know that there are people in his administration who think this is disastrous,” Call said of the war overall and U.S. support for it. “Not just for Palestinians, for Israelis, for Jews, for Americans, for his election prospects.”

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 10:16

Finallyloggedin · 16/05/2024 06:49

That was ee this sentence we are discussing:
Zionism had all its plans for Palestinians finalized years before the holocaust. It dehumanized them and had a deep disdain for their way of life and who they were even before the first Zionist settlers landed in Palestine

Thank you, Finallyloggedin that is an harrowing example of 1948 Jews in Israel dehumanising Palestinians during the Nakba, so as you say later than the period the article makes reference to.

An earlier example I have found, but where Jewish people are the victims, is of pre WW11 pogroms from 1918 - 21 in Ukraine:

In the early 1920s, thousands of Jewish child refugees flooded into Moscow from Ukraine, fleeing a terrifying series of pogroms. Legendary Jewish artist Marc Chagall remembered giving art lessons to some of the refugees at a Jewish orphanage outside the Soviet capital. He recalled the horrifying atrocities they spoke about — their parents murdered, their sisters raped and slain, and the children themselves chased out in the cold, threadbare and starving.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-before-the-holocaust-pogroms-killed-100000-jews-then-were-forgotten/

But we still haven’t found information either way to Jewish would-be settler attitudes to Palestinians (or Palestinian attitudes to Jewish settler or indigenous Jewish people) before the first settlers landed in Palestine

Will keep looking later.

IbisDancer · 16/05/2024 10:22

There were many Jewish communities in Palestine all through history that were already there in the Palestine Mandate and after.

Bearing Witness to the genocide - Israeli Academic Lee Mordechai
ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 10:23

IbisDancer · 16/05/2024 09:52

Pardon if this isn’t an appropriate addition.

An Interior Department staffer on Wednesday became the first Jewish political appointee to publicly resign in protest of U.S. support for Israel’s war in Gaza. Lily Greenberg Call, a special assistant to the chief of staff in the Interior Department, accused President Joe Biden of using Jews to justify U.S. policy in the conflict.

Her resignation letter - I cannot find full text, just quotes from it
Greenberg Call said: "I can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration amidst President Biden’s disastrous, continued support for Israel’s genocide in Gaza"."What I have learned from my Jewish tradition is that every life is precious. That we are obligated to stand up for those facing violence and oppression, and to question authority in the face of injustice,"
“However, I can no longer in good conscience continue to represent this administration,” she wrote.

In an interview with The Associated Press, Call pointed to comments by Biden, including at a White House Hanukkah event where he said “Were there no Israel, there wouldn’t be a Jew in the world who was safe” and at an event at Washington’s Holocaust Memorial last week in which he said the Oct. 7 Hamas-led attacks that triggered the war were driven by an “ancient desire to wipe out the Jewish people.”

“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence.”

“I think the president has to know that there are people in his administration who think this is disastrous,” Call said of the war overall and U.S. support for it. “Not just for Palestinians, for Israelis, for Jews, for Americans, for his election prospects.”

Thank you. That is interesting and relevant to the article Finallyloggedin posted.

Re what Lily Greenberg Call says here:

“He is making Jews the face of the American war machine. And that is so deeply wrong,” she said, noting that ancestors of hers were killed by “state-sponsored violence.”

I had previously thought Biden was just trying to help Israel in its hour of need, but Lily Call who is Jewish herself, and religiously so too it would seem, must believe this strongly to have taken this stand.

IbisDancer · 16/05/2024 10:25

This fact sheet hints at unease by the indigenous population during the 1920s-1930s at the uncontrolled immigration of Jewish settlers, forcing the British to set quotas and pass laws restricting immigration
https://www.cjpme.org/fs_007

Demographics of Historic Palestine prior to 1948

https://www.cjpme.org/fs_007

IbisDancer · 16/05/2024 10:28

Paragraph from the factsheet
”Jewish emigration to historic Palestine grew over the first decades of the 20th century, especially during the 1930s. As the Jewish population in Palestine increased, the indigenous Arab population put pressure on the British government to control the immigration. Thus, in the 1920s, the British restricted Jewish immigration by fixing quotas and authorizing certain Jewish organizations to distribute immigration certificates as they saw fit. Nevertheless, with increased persecution of Jews in Europe, many Jews were not willing to wait years for immigration certificates. Thus, in 1934, the Vallos became the first chartered immigration ship to arrive in Palestine, carrying 350 Jews. By the time WWII had begun, tens of thousands of Jewish immigrants had arrived illegally in Palestine by ship. This illegal shipping of immigrants continued well into the 1940s. While the British intercepted some of the ships, almost all of the immigrants were eventually able to settle in Palestine.[6]
The Jewish community found other ways to emigrate to Palestine, exploiting loopholes in the Mandatory government’s immigration regulations. Students were not required to have immigration certificates to study in Palestine, so many enrolled at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and then remained in the country. Young women entered the country claiming fictitious marriages to Palestinian residents. Others arrived as tourists, and never returned to their former countries. In 1935 alone, almost 5,000 Jews entered the county illegally through these various means.[7]
In 1939, concerned with the rising tensions in Palestine due to the massive Jewish immigration – both legal and illegal – the British government issued Parliamentary Document 6019 (a.k.a the White Paper of 1939), slated to limit the Jewish population in Palestine to no more than one third the total. If economic capacity permitted, 75,000 Jews would be allowed to come to Palestine, after which “no further Jewish immigration will be permitted unless the Arabs are prepared to acquiesce to it.”[8] “

Sounds a lot like the small boats of refugees we have coming to the UK. As the Jewish settlers during the Palestine Mandate were clearly, imho, refugees fleeing persecution by Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Lenin/Stalin…

Demographics of Historic Palestine prior to 1948

https://www.cjpme.org/fs_007#_edn8

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 10:51

Ibis dancer thank you for those census details.

So there were about 3.2 percent of Jewish indigenous people in Palestine in 1878 and 2 percent European born Jewish people.

So that sentence in Finallyloggedin’s posted article, alleging Jewish attitudes of dehumanisation towards Palestinians even before the first settlers, must be referring to attitudes within the Zionist movement at the end of the 19th and early 20th Century.

We would need to know more about what the leaders of that movement in Europe were writing and thinking about Palestinians to know if those allegations were true.

BelleHathor · 16/05/2024 11:07

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 10:16

That was ee this sentence we are discussing:
Zionism had all its plans for Palestinians finalized years before the holocaust. It dehumanized them and had a deep disdain for their way of life and who they were even before the first Zionist settlers landed in Palestine

Thank you, Finallyloggedin that is an harrowing example of 1948 Jews in Israel dehumanising Palestinians during the Nakba, so as you say later than the period the article makes reference to.

An earlier example I have found, but where Jewish people are the victims, is of pre WW11 pogroms from 1918 - 21 in Ukraine:

In the early 1920s, thousands of Jewish child refugees flooded into Moscow from Ukraine, fleeing a terrifying series of pogroms. Legendary Jewish artist Marc Chagall remembered giving art lessons to some of the refugees at a Jewish orphanage outside the Soviet capital. He recalled the horrifying atrocities they spoke about — their parents murdered, their sisters raped and slain, and the children themselves chased out in the cold, threadbare and starving.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/20-years-before-the-holocaust-pogroms-killed-100000-jews-then-were-forgotten/

But we still haven’t found information either way to Jewish would-be settler attitudes to Palestinians (or Palestinian attitudes to Jewish settler or indigenous Jewish people) before the first settlers landed in Palestine

Will keep looking later.

Theodor Herzl is seen as one of the original pioneers of Zionism. You can read the original book that he wrote called "A Jewish State" in 1895 here: https://archive.org/details/herzlt1904ajs/mode/1up
It discusses the plans/hopes for Palestine. It also includes the alternative as Argentina was also considered as a potential Jewish state

Alon Mizrahi is an Arab Jew, Israeli after 1948, so a lot of what he writes is from the context of the discrimination that Arab Jews faced when European Jews came to Palestine and after the state of Israel was established.

A Jewish State: An attempt at a modern solution of the Jewish question : Herzl, Theodore 1860-1904 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Theodor Herzl's A Jewish State: An attempt at a modern solution of the Jewish question.

https://archive.org/details/herzlt1904ajs/mode/1up

Scirocco · 16/05/2024 12:13

@ScrollingLeaves

Theodor Herzl even included descriptions of Palestine as "Arab-blighted" in his work, and from the early days of the Zionist movement there were conscious efforts made to erase the identity of Palestine, including maps in which Palestine was shown as essentially a blank space other than some Jewish settlements.

It wasn't solely the Zionist movement who de-humanised and used derogatory language in relation to Palestinians, though. Many people wrote horrendous things - Mark Twain, for example, wrote the following:

"Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. … It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land. … Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes."

(Of the people living there) "all abject beggars by nature, instinct, and education..." and "the ring of the horses' hoofs roused the stupid population, and they all came trooping out—old men and old women, boys and girls, the blind, the crazy, and the crippled, all in ragged, soiled, and scanty raiment."

These sorts of views were widespread at the time, and have persisted.

I've included a link to an interactive encyclopedia. I can't make any personal guarantees about everything's veracity or potential affiliations of authors because it's a huge encyclopedia, but if people are interested, it might be a good read.

https://www.palquest.org/

Interactive Encyclopedia of the Palestine Question – palquest

Explore events, biographies, highlights and documents, in a platform entirely devoted to the history of the Palestine Question

https://www.palquest.org

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 12:40

Scirocco · 16/05/2024 12:13

@ScrollingLeaves

Theodor Herzl even included descriptions of Palestine as "Arab-blighted" in his work, and from the early days of the Zionist movement there were conscious efforts made to erase the identity of Palestine, including maps in which Palestine was shown as essentially a blank space other than some Jewish settlements.

It wasn't solely the Zionist movement who de-humanised and used derogatory language in relation to Palestinians, though. Many people wrote horrendous things - Mark Twain, for example, wrote the following:

"Of all the lands there are for dismal scenery, I think Palestine must be the prince. … It is a hopeless, dreary, heartbroken land. … Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes."

(Of the people living there) "all abject beggars by nature, instinct, and education..." and "the ring of the horses' hoofs roused the stupid population, and they all came trooping out—old men and old women, boys and girls, the blind, the crazy, and the crippled, all in ragged, soiled, and scanty raiment."

These sorts of views were widespread at the time, and have persisted.

I've included a link to an interactive encyclopedia. I can't make any personal guarantees about everything's veracity or potential affiliations of authors because it's a huge encyclopedia, but if people are interested, it might be a good read.

https://www.palquest.org/

Thank you very much. That Mark Twain quote gives a very good insight to the attitudes towards the Palestinians then, as from what I have quickly read Herzl’s approach was from the point of view of someone who saw himself and like minded Jews as educated, civilised Europeans who would be bringing benefits to barbarians.

Even Herzl as a Jew suffering anti-semitism, was part of the same Western culture as Mark Twain.

in The Jewish State he envisions the Jewish homeland as ‘a rampart of Europe against Asia, an outpost of civilisation as opposed to barbarism’^
https://www.historytoday.com/archive/feature/herzls-troubled-dream-origins-zionism

Herzl’s Troubled Dream: The Origins of Zionism | History Today

https://www.historytoday.com/archive/feature/herzls-troubled-dream-origins-zionism

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 12:51

^When I remember thee in days to come, O Jerusalem, it will not be with pleasure. The musty deposits of 2,000 years of inhumanity, intolerance, and uncleanliness lie in the foul-smelling alleys... The amiable dreamer of Nazareth has only contributed to increasing the hatred.
... What superstition and fanaticism on every side!^

Theodor Herzl

(By, The amiable dreamer of Nazareth, I presume he meant Jesus?)

Dulra · 16/05/2024 12:59

IbisDancer · 16/05/2024 10:28

Paragraph from the factsheet
”Jewish emigration to historic Palestine grew over the first decades of the 20th century, especially during the 1930s. As the Jewish population in Palestine increased, the indigenous Arab population put pressure on the British government to control the immigration. Thus, in the 1920s, the British restricted Jewish immigration by fixing quotas and authorizing certain Jewish organizations to distribute immigration certificates as they saw fit. Nevertheless, with increased persecution of Jews in Europe, many Jews were not willing to wait years for immigration certificates. Thus, in 1934, the Vallos became the first chartered immigration ship to arrive in Palestine, carrying 350 Jews. By the time WWII had begun, tens of thousands of Jewish immigrants had arrived illegally in Palestine by ship. This illegal shipping of immigrants continued well into the 1940s. While the British intercepted some of the ships, almost all of the immigrants were eventually able to settle in Palestine.[6]
The Jewish community found other ways to emigrate to Palestine, exploiting loopholes in the Mandatory government’s immigration regulations. Students were not required to have immigration certificates to study in Palestine, so many enrolled at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, and then remained in the country. Young women entered the country claiming fictitious marriages to Palestinian residents. Others arrived as tourists, and never returned to their former countries. In 1935 alone, almost 5,000 Jews entered the county illegally through these various means.[7]
In 1939, concerned with the rising tensions in Palestine due to the massive Jewish immigration – both legal and illegal – the British government issued Parliamentary Document 6019 (a.k.a the White Paper of 1939), slated to limit the Jewish population in Palestine to no more than one third the total. If economic capacity permitted, 75,000 Jews would be allowed to come to Palestine, after which “no further Jewish immigration will be permitted unless the Arabs are prepared to acquiesce to it.”[8] “

Sounds a lot like the small boats of refugees we have coming to the UK. As the Jewish settlers during the Palestine Mandate were clearly, imho, refugees fleeing persecution by Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Lenin/Stalin…

I don't know why but given what was coming down the tracks I find this all so depressing. They had no idea what was going to happen to their homeland or their people

ScrollingLeaves · 16/05/2024 13:13

Dulra · 16/05/2024 12:59

I don't know why but given what was coming down the tracks I find this all so depressing. They had no idea what was going to happen to their homeland or their people

Who did not know, Dulra?

Do you mean the 90% Palestinian population at that time, or the mainly European Jewish colonising settlers ( apart from the 2% indigenous Jews) who thought of this as their homeland from ancient times?

I was not quite clear from your post. I agree it is depressing as it seems all round disaster was inevitable.