Q for British Muslims

[Muthaofcats]

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/2024/04/08/only-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel-on-october-7th/

I was really curious (and shocked) to read news reports of the recent research canvassing the views of British Muslims in this country, it covers things like support for Hamas and anti semitism, but also extends to views on women’s roles in British society and subjects like homophobia too.

These views are quite at odds with public sentiment and our law and social policy generally, so I was quite shocked by them and what they mean for social cohesion and education in this country.

I am very conscious of the limitations of any study like this, and also that there is no one ‘Muslim’ identity, but would love to hear from Muslim women on here to see what you made of these reports / the findings ?

Do they broadly reflect your views or that of your community ?

If so, how does that impact on your life day to day and do you see a way that such values can peacefully coexist alongside those who do not share the same view point as you?

I am asking this out of genuine curiosity and in good faith, I am inviting respectful discourse only.

I do not want any hateful or racist language about ANY group in this thread please.

I do actually recognise a lot of the names that have piled on now from previous discussions about the ME conflict and those posts were hugely prejudiced and very much pushing an extreme agenda on other threads so I shouldn’t be surprised.

Says a lot to me that I recognise those names given the huge numbers of users on here, so I appreciate what you’re saying and that I’m not necessarily hearing from a representative sample.

It’s sad that ill intent is the go-to but suggests those people are feeling marginalised and frightened and I can understand how this conflict has got them there. It’s a scary time for both Muslims and Jewish people and i think the population more generally so it breeds paranoia and suspicion which is exactly what hatred feeds off.

any attempts I make to have a more expansive non divisive conversation will time and again be pushed back down a divisive rhetoric.

Of course they don’t have to. It’s a forum, people ask questions, and people answer them.

im not holding them to account, I was curious to see perspectives from those the research purported to be about. Why does that offend you so much? Why does it make me arrogant?

is it because your accusations have failed to land that you are now finding me arrogant? Are you frustrated that you can’t find a peg to hang your coat on?

OP Your posts are disingenuous. What you're doing is the equivalent of using a survey of 1000 Brits to make a statement about the beliefs, political views and values of ALL of British society except that you full well know that the answers will vary extremely, depending on where you collect your survey responses. E.g. you'll get vastly different answers outside of an EDL meeting vs a church service, vs a LGBTQIA parade. With your faux naiveté you are trying to convey that all Muslims have the same heritage, values, belief systems, political opinions and using this to portray Muslims as 'other'.

Ok @Muthaofcats let's discuss ,what do you think about the fact that British muslims are more likely to vote Labour than the general public?

What do you think about the fact that they care more about education than the general public?

I'm sorry, but where did you get that from? The company that did the actual polling (JL Partners) stated that:

"British Muslims: quota-ed and weighted to be representative of British Muslims on age, gender, education, ethnic group, country of birth and region."

Where do you get the bit that over half of them were born overseas?

@Muthaofcats many posters will almost certainly be happy to discuss questions you have about Islam - the timing of the survey, who it's by, the poor quality of the survey design, etc all make it a bit difficult for some people to know what the intentions were (I understand from your posts that you've said there's no ulterior motive, but I hope you can understand that, for a group who regularly experiences prejudice presented in similar fashions, it can come across as being an attempt to cause hurt and spread negativity).

What would you like to know about Islam and Muslims?

I don’t think the OP is being disingenuous- their first post makes it very clear there is to be no denigrating of any religious groups.

I have found it really informative and very helpful actually and would like to thank those posters who have answered my questions.

Although I understand why there are suspicions about faux naïveté, there have been a fair few on this board. I didn’t know about Eid but I am suspicious as to why the findings were disseminated at this time (I mean to have Nigel Farage opining on this around Eid does make you think). However, that is not down to the OP.

I usually try to see best intentions in people but, respectfully, I disagree with you on this one. A quick google search shows that the pollsters are associated with Breitbart and the OP posted this on Eid. OP also doesn't accept polite responses that point out the flawed nature of the survey claiming her questions weren't answered.

@TooBigForMyBoots OK, I found where those numbers come from.

But what's the problem? That just reflects the actual make up of the muslim population in the UK today.

Even a few years ago, the Muslim Council of Britain did a report based on the 2011 census and they found that back in 2011 only 47% of muslims living in England & Wales were born in the UK - 53% had been born abroad.

The figures were

Middle East & Asia 36%
Africa 10%
Europe 6%
Elsewhere 0.4%

The weighted figure in this study seems to suggest that the percentage of muslims living in England & Wales has now risen to 66%. I don't know if that's true as I haven't looked in detail at the ONS data for the 2021 census.

But for you to be shocked that a majority of muslims in England & Wales were born overseas perhaps indicates that you don't really understand what the national picture really looks like.

Or perhaps you believe that muslims living in this country who weren't born here aren't real "British muslims"?

https://mcb.org.uk/resources/british-muslims-in-numbers/

Are you quoting the wrong person? 🥴
Once again you're assuming my race and religion and saying this is affecting my opinion because I disagreed with the survey and it's board location, why do you think you're doing that?
I'm a white British non-muslim and I still think the surgery was full of crap and that posting it on the conflict in the middle east board was a choiceand your assumption everyone disagreeing with you is an oversensitive Muslim is very telling.

If so, how does that impact on your life day to day and do you see a way that such values can peacefully coexist alongside those who do not share the same view point as you?

Not a loaded question. Not at all.

Someone with more knowledge of data science above seemed to think there was nothing out of the ordinary with respect to the sample size of the research.

for the Nth time; this is not MY study, I am not advocating for this study, it was published widely across various media sources across the political spectrum.

I asked people on a forum what they made of the study. I made no statements about the contents or deductions about what this means about British Muslims.

The study was about attitudes around the Middle East conflict and Hamas, why wouldn’t it be sensible to post it on a board about that?

As a fellow labour voter I am inclined to agree with them…. as long as we aren’t talking corbyn and then we are at odds :)

@Scirocco , thank you for the link which I took a decent look at. It looked unbiased to me, didn’t look vague and appears to be an interesting insight into the views of others.

It's not the sample size in itself that's a particular issue, it's the recruitment methods of that sample. 1000 respondents in one branch of a study is not an unreasonably small number, but they haven't demonstrated appropriate recruitment methods to ensure the two branches can be appropriately compared and that they are indeed representative of the general population. They also don't appear to have made reasonable adjustments which would enable all respondents to be participating on equal footing or which would reduce self-exclusion from the survey.

For example, I can't see anything about consideration of making the survey available in other languages. Many people living in the UK have English as a second or third language. Was that considered? Was there consideration to making the survey available in languages other than English? If it's only been available in English, some people may be at a disadvantage when responding or may decide not to take part due that. That means a substantial number of respondents' answers may not reflect their actual views, and that a chunk of the general population may have been missed as well.

The sample size isn’t the only element to consider. Like I said, bias is possible especially if you look at who the pollsters are.

Also that rather than use any Muslim respondents from their general public pool of respondent's and compare the responses between Muslims and non muslims, instead used a separate pool of people apparently according to PP which are gathered through "advertising" with no mention of that the advert link said.

Or where the advert appeared...

I have welcomed discussion around the intention and methodology of the survey, as well as the agenda of the think tank, throughout this thread so am surprised you disagree.

That discussion has dominated, rather than any discussion of the themes and opinions the survey explores, and I have engaged and reflected on each comment about that with interest.

I am not Muslim so whilst I had a broad awareness that it was Eid this month because my Muslim friends are fasting, I did not know today was Eid, and nor would my knowledge of that day have affected my decision to post, as I was not posting with ill intent towards the Muslim community (in fact quite the opposite) so wouldn’t have considered my question offensive or upsetting or intended to denigrate anyone. I was asking because I wanted to hear from those affected by a study purporting to be about their opinion what they made of it.

I can’t tell you that the initial timing of the report publication wasn’t more considered or pointed, because I really don’t know, but can certainly take the point that the think tank does seem to be anti- elements of islam, and can see from their previous litigation that they’ve strayed over the line in the past.

@PaperDoIIs , on the contrary I think it’s a very good question.
I was watching the first part of a short series (channel 4) the other night detailing the appalling treatment metered out to Asians in Hounslow/ Southall I can’t remember which, in the seventies. It was shocking and so sad. I was a child in the seventies and there was no racism in my home, I just wasn’t aware people felt that way. It needed people with the courage to point out what was happening and to campaign for change. Ditto the disgraceful treatment of gay people. We really must be able to discuss issues, nothing should be off limits.

Where on the JL Partners report does it reference the online sample being recruited via advertising ? I couldn’t spot that.

Exactly. It just seems like they could have avoided any bad faith assumptions by just using the same pool of people to compare (and apparently the general public pool they held way more data about anyway...) It just seems convenient that they haven't used the most unbiased way to collect the data and quelle suprise have found answers that match their usual leanings.
I also take issue with the presentation of some of the stats considering the agenda of the society. It's a choice to highlight that a minority of the group believed X when the majority didn't for example.

RTFT a helpful poster put a whole response about the selection of the groups....

Yes i just can’t see from the actual source material where this is the case