Q for British Muslims

[Muthaofcats]

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/2024/04/08/only-one-in-four-british-muslims-believe-hamas-committed-murder-and-rape-in-israel-on-october-7th/

I was really curious (and shocked) to read news reports of the recent research canvassing the views of British Muslims in this country, it covers things like support for Hamas and anti semitism, but also extends to views on women’s roles in British society and subjects like homophobia too.

These views are quite at odds with public sentiment and our law and social policy generally, so I was quite shocked by them and what they mean for social cohesion and education in this country.

I am very conscious of the limitations of any study like this, and also that there is no one ‘Muslim’ identity, but would love to hear from Muslim women on here to see what you made of these reports / the findings ?

Do they broadly reflect your views or that of your community ?

If so, how does that impact on your life day to day and do you see a way that such values can peacefully coexist alongside those who do not share the same view point as you?

I am asking this out of genuine curiosity and in good faith, I am inviting respectful discourse only.

I do not want any hateful or racist language about ANY group in this thread please.

You accused me of smearing British Muslims and spreading hate by asking for their perspectives on the research published in the national press about their opinions.

I was directly inviting query and their contrary viewpoints on the research so they could speak for themselves and dispute what the research suggested or even why the research was published in the first place.

You’ve accused me of some frankly offensive things and I’m not sure why.

I suggest if anyone is projecting, it is you, but I get it / if you’re used to experiencing bigotry or hatred as a result of your religion then I can see why you’d be suspicious of anyone asking about it, particularly if it covers themes that are typically at odds with ‘western’ values (ie homophobia) it might make you feel that the question is a pointed one.

This was posted on the Middle Eastern board because the study referenced British Muslims opinions on Hamas and on Jews and I was interested to hear from British Muslim voices on the reports.

Giving the respect to Muslim people to want to hear what they have to say about it, and being interested in their opinions, is precisely the opposite of spreading hatred and intending to incite fear and suspicion.

Super helpful. Thank you

May posters still trying to discredit the research rather than discuss the issue it highlights I see. Quelle surprise.

I’m pleased @Muthaofcats did post this though as I have never heard of the HJS before so it’s good to get a heads up regarding their dodgy practices.

Also it’s been referenced in The Guardian? Now the Daily Mail and GB news I get, standard fodder for them (GB news even had Nigel Farage discussing it, and if that’s not a heads up that something is a bit iffy I don’t know what is) but I’m really surprised at the Guardian. Although I can’t read the entire article due to the paywall.

Yes I saw it in left leaning press (I don’t read the daily Mail or telegraph).

Is there any evidence of ‘dodgy practices’ or a legitimate scrutiny of their research methodologies ? Other than what someone on mumsnet says I mean?

Why do ppl still take notice of polls after polls predicted wins in 2016 for Remain & Clinton??

Yes I’m still none the wiser whether people are disagreeing that the attitudes and opinions reflected in the study are a true representation of their view point or not.

It appears even asking the question is perceived as spreading hate.

Is there any evidence of ‘dodgy practices’ or a legitimate scrutiny of their research methodologies ? Other than what someone on mumsnet says I mean?

Actually I don’t know but a pp referred to the sample as not being representative of British Muslims as many of the respondents lived abroad/ were not born in Britain (can’t remember which) for example, and surely that could skew results?

Yes I couldn’t see from the demographic data that it said non U.K. Muslims were asked; it looks like it’s focused on British Muslims not those living abroad.

perhaps the poster meant because some weren’t born in Britain? But that does not mean they aren’t British (and to suggest it does reveals prejudice)

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/HJS-Deck-200324-Final.pdf

im v open to hearing scrutiny on this research btw; I’m not advocating FOR it

And also the fact that they have form for upsetting Muslims makes me cautious and more likely to question how they have arrived at these findings.

If one was to believe Polls, which I don't, does it matter, in this case, if Muslims were born in UK or not?

Yes I agree that things like the libel case would also make me pause too

This was actually discussed on the most recent ‘the rest is politics’ and I think they said it’s not so much useful as a predictor but used to shape policy.

so if you’re Labour and trying to appeal to voters, then the attitudes of the demographic most likely to vote for you will influence your policies.

This is potentially problematic if the views of your target voters are contrary to western values (ie anti gay), as it might encourage policy and government decisions that threaten a civilised society.

Take for example corbyn’s problematic relationship with Hamas and anti semitism - this isn’t problematic for him if a large cohort of his voters agree with him. In fact it may be precisely what has informed his approach.

so trying to determine the sentiment of different demographics and target voters in polls is really useful for informing public policy and so something we should all be alive to and safe to critique and challenge in a democracy.

that is quite different form ensuring the research is methodologically sound.

You haven't shared it on the Jewish Mumsnetters board for reactions (perhaps the comparable date would be the 22nd April, being Pesach?), nor have you shared surveys of similar dubious construction and provenance about specifically Jewish/Israeli opinions obtained during the conflict vs. a preselected demographic of randoms off the internet who complete surveys for vouchers, though.

That's where the posters' suspicion comes from - why share this? Why here? Why ask Muslims? Why expect Muslims to answer for what a non-Muslim organisation is claiming? What are the motivations? Could you be somebody adopting a persona of faux innocence to spread the negatives? It's something everybody should ask when reading anything online - why? What is it saying? What is it implying? What could be the effect of these words, intentional or unintentional?

After all, the saying is that the first casualty of war is the truth. Usually, that's missing in action long before the first shot is fired, so I do think it's a snappy soundbite where it could be argued that war is not just in the first bullet or bomb, it's the years, decades and centuries preceding it that are also war. But it's important to be aware that damage can be done in many ways, including where the person potentially doing damage never intended it.

It's not that some weren't born in Britain. It's that out of the 1000 "British" Muslims, the number who were foreign born was 409 and 666. It's all there @Muthaofcats in the survey under Methodology: quota design for British Muslims poll.

I

But surely if I’d posted it on a Jewish board you could more safely accuse me of trying to perpetuate division ?

why wouldn’t I ask Muslims if they agree with
what a poll is claiming to be their opinion?

Why wouldn’t you want the opportunity and voice to correct what is being reported in the mainstream media (both left and right leaning)?

I don’t understand why asking the question ‘close to Eid’ is inflammatory, is there a particular nuance to the religion around discussion during particular festivals / holidays that I’m unaware of ?

This is being reported in mainstream media, so people are going to discuss it. That’s what we do on this forum every day. We see reports and then discuss and dissect them.

I would expect that wanting to discuss it with the people it purports to be about is far healthier and much closer to the pursuit of ‘truth’ than only engaging with people like me?

Yes but I’m not adept at analysing research methodology so I’m not necessarily as clear on what I’m looking at as you / a data scientist might be which is why I welcome having it being pointed out and discussed.

Interestingly it appears over half of British Muslims weren’t born in the U.K. so query whether their sample group isn’t actually fairly representative?

• Yes I’m still none the wiser whether people are disagreeing that the attitudes and opinions reflected in the study are a true representation of their view point or not.

It appears even asking the question is perceived as spreading hate.*

What you basically want is Muslim posters to come out and say they disagree and justify themselves. Why? So you can draw flawed conclusions based on that? They don't owe you that. Especially not on a thread that is significantly biased. When you come out and denounce stuff said by the people I mentioned before or support it depending on your leaning, then you can expect other communities to speak out. Otherwise you're just displaying arrogance masked as faux naïveté.

@Scirocco , I did try to find the survey questions but was unable to do so.
Are they on this thread somewhere or can you post them please?

Sorry I don’t understand.

I can see you’re accusing me of arrogance and ’wanting Muslims to justify themselves to me’ but can’t follow the rest.

Are you saying Muslim people shouldn’t want to discuss polls about their opinions? Or because I might not like their opinions they shouldn’t have to justify them?

I’m not being deliberately obtuse I just don’t get what you’re accusing me of.

They are in the study:

https://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/04/HJS-Deck-200324-Final.pdf

@Lovepeaceunderstanding if you click on the link in the first post, there's a option to see the full poll findings - in there, they show what look to be the questions asked, although the data is inefficiently and inconsistently presented in the report.

If you're looking for a reasoned discussion and debate, You won't get it on here OP. Posters have left in droves in recent weeks so all that remains is one vast echo chamber. I think it's become pointless to post when your every word will be scrutinised, pulled apart and pounced on for " ill intent" and If found lacking, the pile on will ensue. If you look around on some of the other boards though, I'll think you'll find more of a welcome and people who are a bit more open to discussing alternative opinions.

I'm saying they don't have to, especially not at your request.

Your bafflement at the lack of engagement is what is arrogant.

The last few questions are also interesting. Even more interesting that they seem to have been asked of the "general public" only.

Unless I missed something... research in the middle of the night is not my forte.