To think that the blame lies with Hamas and Israel deserves our support

[measuringmylifeincoffeespoons]

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers recently is a terrible tragedy and it is entirely right that Israel is investigating why it happened and holding members of the IDF responsible.

However, the criticism of Israel seems to miss a fundamentally important point which is that Israel is engaged in military operations in Gaza for one reason only: the barbaric terrorist attacks that were committed by Hamas on 7 October and their continued imprisonment of Israel citizens as hostages.

Of course, the deaths of the aid workers is a tragedy. Every civilian death that occurs in a war is a tragedy. But the reality is that that is what happens in a war, and Hamas is responsible for the fact that there is a war.

The war can be ended, and billions of dollars of aid can be released into Gaza, very simply. Hamas simply needs to lay down its arms and release the Israeli citizens that it has taken hostage and continues to keep imprisoned.

Unless and until Hamas do that, the state of Israel deserves our continuing support in its battle against a brutal terrorist organisation that has kidnapped the innocent civilians of a democratic state.

Surely you've heard "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

I don't know enough about the validity of the stats for the Israel/Gaza conflict to say whether they're true or not.

However, the point I was trying to make was that according to the UN 90% of casualties in all wars are civilians. To suggest that the 90% figure is unique to the Israelis is disingenuous and looks to me as a deliberate attempt to paint them as blood thirsty monsters.

I don’t think that’s true actually. I have heard Israeli spokes people confirm that most of the tunnels were built by the Israeli government when they were directly involved in Palestine. Also don’t forget, Israel have funded and supported Hamas for a number of years before now.

drivinmecrazy

You’re welcome. I can’t answer how many people were displaced because of the creation of the State of Israel. I wish I could answer that. But a good historian, probably the most renowned Palestinian historian among many, is Edward Said, if you want to Google around and deep dive into a historically accurate account of what happened to the inhabitants
during the Nakba.

The historical context is important in this saga.
Because we have one side saying that Israel is their homeland and there was a need to return.
The way they treated those displaced people is key to todays conflict.

Those who were displaced were assured they could return to their lands. Some are old enough to still be waiting.

You see, I cannot connect a deeply religious people completely disregarding the rights of their fellow man.

One side believes they have an ancient right to usurp and displace others to fit their need.

I really struggle with this, and try and tell myself that this is the attitude of the government not the people.

But the more that people come in blindly supporting the actions against Palestinians the harder it is to reconcile.

Yes, it’s only ever “the Israeli government” (or “Zionists”) that’s criticised, no other people. Totally. Definitely.

Surely you've heard "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

The Houthis, for example.

My question would be, Where did the Jewish people come from originally? At school I think we were taught they escaped from slavery in Egypt to Palestine where they were welcomed and enjoyed freedom having crossed the desert and nearly given up. So where were they enslaved from?

Israel will not agree any two state solution that allows displaced Palestinians a right of return. Therein lies the problem.

I don't know if you're deliberately misquoting that or you are repeating a misquote you read elsewhere. It's 90% of casualties in explosive attacks in populated areas are civilians, not in war in general. Which is exactly why people questioning why Israel continue to use the tactic of bombing populated areas which they know from the stats will overwhelmingly kill civilians when they could be doing targeted operations.

The rate of children killed in this war is astronomical though. And highly irregular.

drivinmecrazy

The problem with Israel is that its right to exist has been fundamentally shaped and propelled by a fanaticism born of deep trauma; pogroms, the Holocaust, going back to the Alhambra Decree in Spain, and everything in between. To be perpetually persecuted encourages people to develop a fanatical survival instinct.
Though I believe Israel today is less shaped by the past trauma of its people and more by arrogance born of homogeneity and a bloated sense of entitlement… and the influx of US weapons (like candy for its kid brother!).

The ratio of children to adults is very high which would go some way to explaining that I imagine. I'm not sure the exact figure. I will google

So nearly half of Gaza's population is under 18.

Explaining what?

Yes, bombing entire households indiscriminately is the problem though, not that there are too many children in Gaza.

I didn't say there are too many children in Gaza....one poster said that 90% of deaths in war are civilians. Another poster said that the rate of child deaths is very high and irregular. I then said that half of the population is under 18 which may go some way to explaining that.

This has been highlighted massively ever since Israel announced it was going to start collectively punishing Gaza . 43% are under 14. Do you still think people are opposing the use of white phosphorus on them, bombing them or sniping them is because it's trendy?

Yes. It's definitely a reason not to bomb entire cities to oblivion.

I'm not going to justify what I said. I gave a statistic not an opinion

And a reason not to block aid and shut down pretty much all healthcare.

Debunked where and how? Just because you disagree with it? Throughout the thread I’ve continually pointed out how the UK could have made similar arguments to what Israel have to justify an all out attack on Irish citizens or NI nationalists. It’s doesn’t have to be an identical set of circumstances for a comparison to be made.

it’s not offensive to me as an Irish person or to any other Irish people I know

A previous poster said that 90% of casualties in Israel were civilian, I was responding to them initially to say that figure wasn't unique to Israel.

I imagine they aren't undertaking ground offensives for the same reason every country does i.e., there's less chance of friendly casualties with bombing campaigns.

But again this tactic isn't unique to Israel and I don't remember there being quite the same level of outrage when Ukraine was shelling the Donbas region (remember before the Russian invasion the UN were warning of human rights violations being committed by Ukraine in that region) or when Saudi dropped British made (and globally banned) cluster bombs in Yemen.

As I said there's a real concerted effort going on to create a narrative in which Israel are the blood thirsty monster hell bent on slaughter that isn't pursued when other countries engage in war.

Op you need to check your head. So many odd thinking people. Justification for israel is BS now and everyone is bored of it. I've seen tiny children shaking sobbing in fear, little girls and boys in agony starving. Who do you think they'll become when they're older considering all their families have been murdered by Israel. Stop telling yourself this is about hamas. There are official blueprints and plans showing what they want to do with this land once they kill and remove all Palestinians. Get a grip, your thinking is evil and self righteous. Learn the history at the minimum

If it was it would have been deleted
Criticism of Israels actions are NOT anti semitic and argiung it is is an attempt to stifle debate