Christians in Jerusalem

[EasterIssland]

found this in Twitter today about the current situation of Christians in Jerusalem (West bank and East Jerusalem) and the struggles they’re going through

https://premierchristian.news/en/news/article/christians-in-holy-land-desperate-over-lack-of-work-and-upsurge-in-religious-hatred

The situation for Christians is especially desperate as most of them work in the tourism sector, which has been at a standstill since the conflict began.

The source told ACN that for Christians “wearing a cross can get you into trouble.
“Sometimes you have to hide your identity in your own homeland to avoid problems.
“The presence in the area of groups with increasingly radical elements makes our situation even more difficult.”

Having spent time in the UK over the past year, having seen the ways in which the political establishment weaponised racial and religious prejudices, I don't see what would be wrong with saying the UK government at those times did bad things and through inaction facilitated bad things. I don't need to dilute that criticism by saying "but what about France or Italy or Germany". It's possible to look critically at what's happening in a country and say that it's not ok in itself.

In this thread, an article was initially shared that focused on a specific group in a specific situation. Maybe the OP hoped to have a space in which that article and that group could be discussed. Maybe, rather than derailing the OP's thread, it would have been more appropriate (if people wanted to discuss the wider social and political challenges facing Christian populations in the Middle East) for people to start their own threads with a broader scope set out in the original posts for those threads.

The problem with Christians in Israel was discussed. There was discussion on the poor treatment by settlers by several and it was widely condemned, correctly so.

Someone kindly added how Israel are rated much better with treatment than other countries in the middle east (which doesn't make it right but adds information) which some want to ignore for various reasons. Why are people reluctant to discuss the treatment of Christians in the middle east generally? Are they not worthy unless it's anti Israel chat? 🤔 It certainly appears that way and why so many different posters commented to say that.

It was interesting how many DIFFERENT POSTERS commented when many of the threads are now dominated by a few posters, becoming echo chambers. It's refreshing to see a thread with lots of different posters take part with a variety of views and that's the point of a chat forum surely?

Alas, the poor Christians don't appear to matter unless it's used to dig at Israel. It certainly comes over that way with the claims of we only want to discuss that and ignore the rest.

Christians are persecuted throughout the middle east, imprisonment and torture, even death and THEY ALL MATTER, not just some of them. I've learnt from what others have shared in this thread and I thank those posters for that.

Well quite, it does very much come across as some Christian lives mattering more than others to some posters when the insistence is that the only Christians worth acknowledging are those being mistreated by a certain group in Jerusalem, who don't represent Israel or Jewish people as a whole. It's sad to see the plight of Christians across the MENA region being ignored by some on this thread when discussion of this is an expansion on the issue of their persecution rather than a digression or derail.

Attempts to thread police it back into a yet another "Israel are doing something bad!" thread rather than acknowledging there is a wider issue that is relevant to the discussion are tiresome, as are the ongoing creative misinterpretations of posts even after the poster has repeatedly clarified what they said and what they meant.

I don't need to dilute that criticism by saying "but what about France or Italy or Germany"

But I am not trying to dilute anything. Where am I trying to dilute anything?

I’m simply saying that the upsurge in religious hatred as described in the article Is wholly unsurprising given the trends we have seen since 7 October and that those trends are not specific to any one country or region.

You are reading way too much into my comment.

I would expect Christians to be well treated in the homeland of their religion. I find it particularly egregious if they are unsafe in the holy land, while realising they are persecuted elsewhere.

The Holy Land is a holy land for all three religions. It’s tragic and ironic for all the religions who have holy places in this contested region.

Christians are abused by extremists in Israel , as are Muslims.
As has been said minority groups are also abused by extremists in this country.
Abuse of minorities is not acceptable but unfortunately happens everywhere- by Christian,Muslim and Jewish extremists.

Indeed @Limesodaagain But it is the place where Christ lived and died and so of great importance to us and a historic connection, which is not to discount the connections of other religions. As a minimum a Christian should be safe to visit or live a peaceful life there without being spat upon, reviled or displaced. But the larger issue is, I think, the unjust treatment of Palestinians more generally, even while I assert that Christians have a moral right to refuge in the land from where they originated.

The plight of Christians in the Holy Land is a discussion that is worth having but not in the current context. The terrible conflict in Gaza means that any debate about Christians in Jerusalem can become polarised and used as yet another proxy online battle against Israelis.
When there is peace we can have a very good discussion about the future of Christianity in the Holy Land.

35:50 minutes in to Sunday on Radio4 this morning, a bishop is talking about this subject (Palestinian Christians, and the Kisiya family, in the West Bank):
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00236qw

Four senior Church of England bishops have accused Israel of acting above the law in the West Bank. In a letter sent to The Observer newspaper, they have called on the UN to move beyond strongly worded resolutions and they say there is little distinction between state and settlor violence. The bishops say the letter has been prompted by the forceful dispossession of a Christian family from their ancestral land outside Bethlehem. Emily Buchanan speaks to one of the signatories, Bishop of Southwark, Christopher Chessun.

( Before thus item they were discussion Hezbollah and Lebanon.)

Thank you. I will have a listen. I don’t disagree that the settler violence is terrible and wrong. I understand why clergy want to draw attention to it. The settlers are extremists and target all Palestinians. It’s obviously wrong.
There are examples of Christian Palestinian families who have felt vulnerable/ targeted living in Hamas-run Palestine. That is wrong too.

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-7-2011-006179_EN.html#:~:text=In%20addition%2C%20it%20was%20confirmed,of%20burial%20on%20Palestinian%20land.

2 % of the population of the Gaza Strip consists of Palestinian Christians. Since the consolidation of power by Hamas, there has been repeated violence against this community. Between 2007 and 2011, there have been acts of vandalism and bomb attacks on Christian schools, homes and institutions, as well as cases of murder and, recently, attempted murder against members of the Christian community. The failure to carry out investigations or arrests following these incidents suggests that Hamas has no intention of intervening to stop this persecution of Christians. In addition, it was confirmed by a Canadian NGO towards the end of 2009 that members of Hamas have repeatedly desecrated Christian graves and exhumed the bodies, in order to ‘decontaminate’ the soil from the corpses of Christians who they believe to be unworthy of burial on Palestinian land. According to the same source, Hamas has forced members of the Christian minority to collaborate with it, intimidating them with threats of rape and reprisals against their families. Discrimination now seems to have become the rule in the West Bank as well, especially in Bethlehem, where the Muslim majority, while accepting Christian tourists, is becoming ever more hostile to Palestinian Christians.

@ScrollingLeaves The Bishops are absolutely correct about Israel operating above the law in the West Bank. I read an article today in the NYT which I linked in another thread,
It's about an investigation into direct links of lawlessness , terrorism, the nationalist settlers , the IDF and the far right monsters in the Israeli Govt. An incredibly shocking read and a conclusion for me that all they want is war and extermination.

Are you concerned about all acts of oppression against Christians or are you only interested in the acts of oppression that are perpetrated by Israeli settlers?

https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/10/03/vanishing-arab-christians-gaza-hamas-di-giovanni-book/
it’s not just Israeli settlers who oppress Christian Palestinians.

@Silence1
Christianity is the most persecuted religion worldwide. ( hard to believe in the west I know)
There is very little discussion of the terrible plight of Christians who suffer severe persecution in many, many countries.
I suppose that’s why I’m a bit cynical about people on here suddenly expressing their concern about the treatment of Christians. It seems the real issue for most of you is something else .
“lawlessness , terrorism, the nationalist settlers , the IDF and the far right monsters in the Israeli Govt. An incredibly shocking read and a conclusion for me that all they want is war and extermination.”
The language used here is extreme and if I used similar words to describe ALL Palestinians on the basis of Hamas’ actions you would rightly object .

Not so much Israel, but Jewish extremists, inflicting intimidation and violence on non Jewish Israelis with impunity.

These cases have increased under Netanyahu's government.

After reading this thread, I too agree with @Limesodaagain that this thread has an underlying motive. If posters are truly concerned about the persecution of Christians, there would be no issue in extending the discussion to include other countries where they face persecution and victimisation on a daily basis. In fact, as the most persecuted religion in the world, it's a hugely important topic and one that worryingly gets the least amount of attention. As such, and If you genuinely care about their plight, why would anyone then try and shut it down when posters discuss countries other than Israel. Seems rather disingenuous.

Its really upsetting on several levels. I despair.

Its not just a question of countries other than Israel, but trying to understand the different complexities in different communities in Israel, Gaza & the West Bank. When I raised that I was attacked enough for the post to be deleted (someone kindly reported it, not me). If we don't discuss & understand nothing gets better.

For that reason, I mostly abstain from posting on this board. The ill intent and use of tactics, including now throwing Christian persecution into the mix, in an effort to try and prove the point that 'Israel and Jewish people are the source of all evil' is beyond disturbing.

The language is extreme to match the extreme people I am talking about.
And I am afraid they absolutely will persecute Christians - anyone who isn't "them"
Yes this is slightly off topic but it does relate to the Bishops talking about Israel operating above the law in the West Bank with regard to this Christian family.
Are you, like the majority of Israelis, just going to pretend this is not an issue?

How Extremist Settlers Took Over Israel - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

In August, Bluth will replace Maj. Gen. Yehuda Fox, who during his final months in charge of the West Bank has seen a near-total breakdown of law enforcement in his area of command. In late October, Fox wrote a letter to his boss, the chief of Israel’s military staff, saying that the surge of Jewish terrorism carried out in revenge for the Oct. 7 attacks “could set the West Bank on fire.” The I.D.F. is the highest security authority in the West Bank, but the military’s top commander put the blame squarely on the police — who ultimately answer to Ben-Gvir. Fox said he had established a special task force to deal with Jewish terrorism, but investigating and arresting the perpetrators is “entirely in the hands of the Israeli police.”
And, he wrote, they aren’t doing their jobs.

Nobody is pretending its not an issue. Its just a lie. Read the posts. Read the reports and articles.

This thread isn't throwing Christian persecution in the mix Christian persecution in Israel is happening. The OP isnt doing it I hope. She's just talking about it.🤷‍♀️