This is the reality of what Israeli is doing.

[Eyesopenwideawake]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/feb/10/im-so-scared-please-come-hind-rajab-six-found-dead-in-gaza-12-days-after-cry-for-help

I saw that @starfleet 😢

More info here.

I was thinking today, and I don't want to excuse what the Israelis are doing, just understand it more. I wonder if Jewish people were so brutalised during WW2 that any perceived, or actual, attack on them, they feel they can only respond with such overwhelming force and kill even the tiniest of threats, stone dead? And I'm not suggesting Hamas presents only a tiny threat either.

Interesting thoughts KenDodd, Understanding motivations is how we bring change.

I've had similar thoughts too trying to make sense of some of the things that I have seen/heard.

I think that is a big part of it, to never allow anything like the WW2 atrocities occur again. Hence the reason why things like the Samson Option exists https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

Additionally, no matter how much you justify actions on another group in order to achieve something, the acts carried out will haunt you.

Perhaps there's a sense of we've done that to them, they'll do worst to us if they get power.

So the tragic, terrible cycle continues.

Not sure why you’ve tagged me.
Guessing this was for someone else

It’s terrible reading about the horrors the children of Palestine are having to endure. It is also terrible thinking about what Hamas would do to the children of Israelis.

The IDF is made up of lots of young, inexperienced and probably terrified conscripts. I have no doubt that some of them do terrible things. They must , in due course, be held accountable.
I think the same is true for Palestinians. Those who have aided and abetted Hamas must be held accountable.

Belated thanks @PeasfullPerson for interesting article

This might be a weird "thanks" but: yes! Many of them are genuinely terrified!

Terrified and indoctrinated to be so. And armed to the teeth. It makes for quite a horrific combination!

My one single "most haunting" memory of Palestine does not include anyone being killed or maimed - although I have seen people, including children, be killed and maimed before my own eyes!

My one "most haunting" memory of "first time in Palestine" consists of something "very normal and par for the course" at the time: the realisation that - as we approached those teenage soldiers with their APC, their armoured Jeep and their machine guns that one day - they were so terrified of me (an unarmed, white, British, underweight 20-year-old) that, first, they stuck any and all guns in my face. And once they realised they were not going to die [which they were never going to - we were just trying to pass, all civilians, all unarmed], they decided to "only" beat the one Palestinian in our little group of three to such a pulp that the remaining two of us had to drag him and hold him up for the rest of the way.

But still, and this is the bit that REALLY haunts me: one of those teenage soldiers - I would have been around 20 and blonde and very pretty back then - decided to ask for my number and suggested I go to some party in Tel Aviv with him on the weekend. He had only just a) been terrified at the sight of me, b) determined I was not personally a threat and, c) participated in brutally assaulting someone I was with, a friend!

What really haunts me to this day is: one minute, he was terrified! But the very next: he asked me on a date, having just taken part in the brutal assault against a friend of mine. And - as per what I could tell - he genuinely did not understand that "fuck, no! I will NOT date anyone who beats a friend of mine to a pulp!!!" was a total "deal breaker" for me. He did not even seem to be entertaining the notion that - to me - he might be "one of the baddies", or that his behaviour might read as "vile".

So, yes, they are terrified.

But being terrified is no justification for "being a monster"!

This one genuinely haunts me to this very day! It is not the beating. Not the unwarranted violence!

What still haunts me is that he - ever so casually - assumed I might still go on a date with him. Ever so casually assuming that I did not think less of him, on a personal level, for just having participated in a violent assault on someone I cared about. But the victim was "only" Palestinian. And I would have been young and pretty.

What haunts me is the realisation that he just, very casually, assumed I would care about Palestinians as little as he did, and that him literally brutalising my friend was not going to be a "hard no" in terms of "but: would she date me"?

Yes, he was terrified! And, still, he was a horrible monster!

Yes if you read the testimonies on Breaking the Silence it's heartbreaking. These young men who thought they were fighting for their country, only to come to realize that they were just supposed to eliminate the Palestinians. They grew up being indoctrinated that they were all evil, subhumans and it was horrific for them to discover they were just humans like them 💔
Still it's interesting the privilege these soldiers are afforded. They are labelled "terrified, inexperienced, naive" whilst Palestinians their age (who have endured so much more) are just cold blooded terrorists. It really makes you think.

@Limeandsodaontherocks yes I don’t doubt Hamas are ruthless and many would kill Israeli children given the chance. The difference is that Israel has billions of dollars to fund security to stop that happening. And are indeed funded by the west to fund the slaughter of Gaza children. Surely you must see the difference in power and of Gaza and Israeli children? Ask killing Gaza. Children will certainly not make Israeli children safer in the long run - completely the opposite.

I think Hamas could have killed a lot of Israeli children if they wanted to. We are constantly told that they are everywhere.... But Israel got in there first though. How many Palestinian kids have been killed by Israel in the last 20 years? Simply shot in the head walking home from school, or just standing in the street? I will not forget the footage of the boy shot by a tank for standing in the street. His brother, who was around 9 then tried to drag his body to the side of the road and he was also shot. Yesterday the 100th person murdered in the West Bank by Israel since 7/10 was a young girl leaving school. Maybe Israel had to do that, because her future dc might be Hamas and would kill Israeli children.

@madderthanahatter Maybe Israel hadto do that, because her future dc might be Hamas and would kill Israeli children.

That ^ isn't as bizarre as it sounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use_of_child_suicide_bombers_by_Palestinian_militant_groups

So Israel should pre emptively kill Palestinian children just incase they become future suicide bombers? By that (seriously flawed) logic, far far more Israeli children would need to be killed than Palestinian ones. The numbers are clear, we know which children are more at risk of murder 💔

Interesting discussion above.

It doesn’t seem a stretch to me to think that there is some psychiatric illness being induced by the way many of these children on both sides are being brought up and indoctrinated. And the children on the wealthier and better-equipped side grow up to be in charge of nuclear weapons with the Samson option seeming to them to be a perfectly reasonable path to take if the US refuses to keep sending them money (if that Wikipedia article is true).

I’ve wondered and wondered why Biden claims to be unhappy with Israel’s conduct yet continues to send billions. If this Samson thing is even part of the reason it’s truly shocking.

It is shocking some people believe this. Must be wanting to provoke a reaction, as I can’t actually believe some one could write this with sincerity.

What they are effectively saying is that for Israelis live safely in Israel depends on the death of Palestinian children! Taken to its logical end, it suggests support for ethnic cleansing of a population.

Snowypeak-You're absolutely correct, except for one thing. Only one side is being indoctrinated into hating the other and it isn't the Palestinians, or at least not nearly to the same extent. It is important to remember that whether in the West Bank, Gaza, or East Jerusalem, all the education materials of the Palestinians is vetted by either Israel or the UN. Palestinians don't nearly have as much control over their lives as the Israeli's and that also applies to their education. They don't need to be indoctrinated into hating Israel, because Israel is oppressing and killing them. Robert Martin had a very interesting interview with Professor Nurit Peled Elhanan (Miko Peled's sister) on the subject.

https://twitter.com/RobertMartin72/status/1727559005445537842

https://twitter.com/RobertMartin72/status/1727559005445537842

Yes you can't really compare the upbringing of the children as their lives are not generally speaking on equal footing. The Palestinians are living under an occupation. I watched a documentary which showed the lives of two dc in the West Bank. Israel had confiscated their home and they were now living in one room in the garden. Groups of Jewish tourists from UK, USA and Australia were brought into the garden and the tour guide was telling them all that this evil family were terrorist dogs and the reason why Israel had no peace. The (adult) tourists were then mocking the young dc and making faces at them as if they were zoo animals 😭.

Interesting posts @Kendodd @BelleHathor @HeidiInTheBigCity if anyone wants to understand or think about the psychology of this I'd recommend looking at the work of Austrian psychiatrist Viktor Frankl. Particularly 'Man's search for meaning'. He was a Jewish Holocaust survivor who lost his parents, wife and brother in concentration camps. He talks about how you can take everything from someone apart from their choice in how to respond to things. Choice of attitude is the last of human freedoms. Reacting versus responding. Reflexive versus chosen. I honestly think this is a glimpse into why Israel chose such a lethal response. They reacted with fear and a 'never again'...but just for us (and a good dose of geographical cynical land grabbing imo). This is where they fucked up. They had the opportunity to respond to October 7th that could have led to change.

I have thought about this line from Frankl's book on repeat: 'Between stimulus and response there is space. In that space is the power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom.'

I think it's really hard for human beings to choose not to reflexively react. It takes a pretty evolved person/set of people to use the space between stimulus and response to grow and think. Neither Hamas leaders nor the Netanyahu government can do it (as they have demonstrated) and until you get a collective will on either side the choice is going to be violence why they can't listen to and learn from people who went through this not very long ago I'll never know.

Sorry, I ended up posting the same link twice and I am no longer able to edit my previous comment. Part 2 of the interview is here.

https://twitter.com/Robert_Martin72/status/1740306013931373003

Wow! That's absolutely disgusting. It's horrible how dehumanised the Palestinians are by the Israelis. Palestinians don't need to be indoctrinated into hating Israelis when they're treated like that.

This makes sense; add to this the generational trauma of the Holocaust and the result is what is happening in Gaza.

I think it's highly likely that the Israeli population saw things that way and understandably so. I'm less convinced that the was the sole motivation of the government. I think it more likely that disproportionate force was used to been seen to be taking decisive action to protect the country and to distract from scrutiny of security and intelligence failures. Unfortunately I think it was the wrong decision and will be counter productive in the medium and long term. We seem to be inching towards a wider conflict and I wonder if Israel can survive it.

I also think that the atrocity propaganda produced by the Israeli government, disseminated by the press and repeated by foreign heads of government was a very cruel thing to do to the Israeli population. I think it was done to manipulate people, keep them terrified and manufacture consent for the military assault on Gaza; after all it would be their children being sent to fight. The reality was bad enough without making things up.

Whilst the Israeli impulse to seek vengeance is understandable it does not excuse foreign governments who supported the military action. A genuine ally would have tried to stop Israel going this far.

Whilst the Israeli impulse to seek vengeance is understandable

This is what I don't get. Israel have been oppressing, occupying, killing and torturing Palestinians for decades. The numbers from the last twenty years alone show this is not some sort of tit for tat conflict.
Hamas killed 1600+ people on 7/10. So many more Palestinians have been killed prior to this, and 25k+ in the last 100 or so days. So why is Israel's impulse to seek vengeance understandable? Should it not be the other way around?