Standing up for Israel

[Fizzadora]

So, they have got to MN now too.
I just managed to read the previous post before it got deleted for being inflammatory. Not to me it wasn't but then I don't support terrorists.
Many, many people do stand for Israel and not for Hamas (and by definition their supporters; you know who you are).

Selective comprehension

there's an echo in here...

I think it's important for both sides of the debate to take a step back and look at the very real issue of genocide.

Palestinians are currently experiencing a genocide. Innocent people (many of whom are children) are being murdered by the thousands. They are being bombed in what should be safe places: family homes, hospitals, schools, mosques. This genocide is happening for a myriad of reasons, including (but not limited to) religion, land, money, racism, and historical wars.

The fact that the undemocratically elected Palestinian leadership (Hamas) has hidden themselves underground and amongst civilians is not only a war crime in itself (use of human shields), but it is demonstrating that the leadership values it's own power more than the lives of it's constituents. Not even the Palestinians' own government is willing to stop the genocide being faced. The genocide being forced onto Palestinians by the Israeli government.

On the other hand, we have Israelis who are not currently experiencing a genocide. It is crucial to note that most Israeli citizens did not vote in Likud which is a coalition and do not support their current government. The vast majority of Israelis also do not have a choice about joining the IDF, as Israel mandates conscription for men and women and puts soldiers who have left the IDF in reserve. Those IDF soldiers currently in Gaza being accused of perpetuating a genocide may well not even support the war they have been told they must fight.

It's all well and good to say that Israel should just clear out of Gaza, stop the occupation, and ceasefire. This would be ideal, and I think any reasonable person does not want any civilian death, let alone the tens of thousands experienced by Palestinians. But if Israel stands down, the genocide will simply change targets.

Without removing Hamas from power in Palestine, Israel (along with Jewish people worldwide) will experience a genocide of their own. This is in Hamas' original charter, which has since been updated to remove "Jews", but Israel's eradication is still very much present. I use quotations on "Jews" because various Hamas leaders have been quoted as recently as 2023 that their goal is to murder all Jews. While Hamas doesn't have the power on it's own to commit a genocide, it has the support of other terrorist organisations in Iran, Lebanon, Syria, and many more. Together, there is a very real threat to all Israelis and Jewish people.

I don't think anybody (who has posted on these threads) actually wishes for the deaths of Palestinian or Israeli people. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of missing information, and a lot of misplaced anger.

Just my two cents.

The aid could restart?
What do you mean by this? The aid should never have stopped! Are you suggesting that Israel are intentionally withholding humanitarian aid? You know this would amount to genocide.
Aid is not a bargaining tool in peace negotiations ever.

Yes

But I would not use the term genocide.

So are you saying that Gaza are experiencing a genocide but if there's a ceasefire it will mean Israel experience a genocide? What do you base that on? According to pro-isreali posters on these threads Hamas spent 2 years organising and coordinating the terrorist attacks on Oct 7th. As horrific as it was it was not a genocide and I'm unsure where they would get the weapons etc to carry out one now. Are you suggesting that there can't be an end to the genocide in Palestine (which you suggest is happening) because it could mean genocide in Israel? That is a dreadful position to hold and I'm not sure why you think it is ok to sacrifice the lives of Palestinians for something that might happen despite there being no evidence that it can.

@durla Exactly. Hamas do not have even close to the military power to inflict a genocide on Israel. Israel has state of the art defences as it is. It's unlikely that an attack like October 7th would be allowed to happen again.

All this talk about Israel having the right to defend itself by what it's doing in Gaza. Under international law, Israel doesn't actually have the right to defend itself in lands that it occupies.

If Israel wants safety it should stop its occupation on Palestine, remove the settlers and stop the blockade of Gaza.

Your post has also come across to me the same way as it has to @Dulra

Is this what you actually meant ~ that you believe there would be a genocide in Israel?

If it is, then that is going down the path of essentially making justifications as to why it is acceptable for what is currently happening and also placing some lives as being more important than others.

Agree completely with your post. It seems like all of the hatred and fear that is taught has really made a mark on some people in all honesty. As you said, Hamas do not have the power to cause a genocide in Israel.

Good post.

I'm definitely not justifying the genocide in Gaza and I apologize if that's how my post came across.

As I said, Hamas don't have the means to commit a genocide against Israel on it's own, but there are enough terrorists organizations surrounding Israel who would certainly take part given the opportunity. I don't know if it would be immediate, but October 7th was just the beginning of the massacres promised by Hamas.

A ceasefire is the only way to stop the killing on both sides, and that ceasefire needs to come from both Likud and Hamas. Aid needs to be let through by the IDF and Hamas needs to distribute it to civilians rather than selling it off and hoarding it.

I fully support a two-state solution. I think this could happen by removing both Hamas and Likud from leadership (with both facing prison for war crimes) and having the UN (or another organization) enforce clear borders. Illegal settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would need to be dismantled and occupation of all of Palestine would need to end. Palestinians would be given official citizenship and would no longer be under refugee status. All prisoners and hostages held without charge would need to be returned without subsequent arrest. All prisoners held under genuine charges would need to treated humanely and as equals to nationals.

@quantumbutterfly I think we will have to agree to disagree on that one. I think the corruption in powerful individuals like Netanyahu and Ben-Gvir has turned what was once a defensive fight triggered by the events of October 7th into a genocide of Palestinians.

Really good post .

Here is a clip of Holocaust survivor and renowned author Dr. Gabor Mate on the topic of Israel.

Thank you for explaining some more. I do agree with you about your further points in the second post. I think you have explained well and I agree completely especially regarding the Israeli government.

I don't think that Israel does have much to worry about with regards to attacks by others but they need to stop attacking others the way that they are. All that does is stir up untold amounts of resentment and hatred. (I'm including the list of countries that have been bombed lately.)

I also still feel that the whole aid being stolen by Hamas isn't actually the case. There has been so many false stories put out there that has done so much damage in varying different factors.

I very much hope that the illegal settlements will be removed permanently. There is so much violence there that is not going to be an easy fix at all particularly with the general attitudes going on.

(I don't mean this post to come across as argumentative at all so I apologise if it reads that way at all!)

I stand by all the innocent Palestinians being slaughtered and orphaned, and any decent Israeli people and hostages. I do not stand by the Israeli government, their monstrous army or Hamas.

OP has thrown a grenade and disappeared.

I am Continental European, Judeo-Christian, do not need to go further to tell you who I am standing for but let me mention that I was annoyed when the churches in Gaza were bombed and I pray for all innocent lives all over this world and for their souls also, to be saved.

@BackandForthRoundandRound I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to clarify before writing off everything I said, as is often the case here. You did not come across as argumentative whatsoever.

As someone who is Jewish and therefore unwittingly has skin in the game (however little at the moment), I think I feel the threat of genocide against Israelis and Jewish people from extremist groups a little bit more imminently. It may be a hint of paranoia, but having grown up experiencing antisemitism and seeing the recent rise in outright violence against Jewish people, it feels very real indeed.

The aid issue is one where I think both parties are in the wrong. I do think the IDF is blocking a large portion aid from entering Palestine, and I do think Hamas is taking the aid money and supplies that actually gets through and utilizing it for dubious means. There has been a lot of money sent to Palestine for years, yet poverty is rife; this makes me very much believe that Hamas is relocating relief funds for their own benefit. Nobody is coming out of this covered in glory.

You were annoyed at churches being bombed but not all the other buildings? Why?

@Scirocco was wondering the same thing.
Today in the north of Gaza, the Palestinians read their Friday prayers in congregation on the streets, because all the mosques in the north have been destroyed or damaged

Because Christians support Israel but they bombed even churches.

What do you mean, Christians support Israel? Why?

Don’t speak for all Christians please. No not all Christians support Israel.