Standing up for Israel

[Fizzadora]

So, they have got to MN now too.
I just managed to read the previous post before it got deleted for being inflammatory. Not to me it wasn't but then I don't support terrorists.
Many, many people do stand for Israel and not for Hamas (and by definition their supporters; you know who you are).

It's really not within the spirit of the site to quote other thread comments

But this particular area of Mumsnet seems to have seen an influx of new, single topic posters.

As you say, I didn’t use the word “illegitimate” and didn’t suggest that, so the implication is imaginary on your part. I don’t think shouting at and attempting to intimidate a lone MP making her way home after work in the name of “justice” embodies Jewish values.

All these disparate groups are, however, an embodiment of the age old tradition of “two Jews, three opinions” so I don’t deny any of them the right to their opinion or declare them to be “illegitimate” voices in the community and I don’t need you to speak for me or impose your perceptions upon me.

Thanks for clarifying. It was in the spirit of "two Jews, three opinions" that I shared a link, for those who were interested.

Sure it was.

You know my intentions better than I do, of course.

They’re pretty easy to surmise, tbh.

@LilaDidIt you seem pretty quick to assume everyone else's.

Massive demonstration today in Brazil

twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1761836034797502774

Apologies as it’s a DM but the only other links I can find are in Brazilian

the demo wasn’t in favour of Israel and “against lula anti semitism ” but it was a demo arranged for Bolsonaro and that he was stolen the elections

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13124251/Thousands-Brazilians-pour-streets-Sao-Paulo-ex-President-Bolsonaro-called-support-amid-claims-plotted-coup-stay-power-election-defeat.html

Plenty of Israeli flags.
Horse shoe theory at its best.

www.reddit.com/r/Israel/s/mB7AgM2lt6

Apparently March was organised after he doubled down on antisemitic comments.

I don't think being aligned with Bolsonaro supporters is something to be proud of.

Edit: apologies I meant to quote @stomachamelon re Israeli flags.

I’ve no clue when it was arranged to be honest. But it doesn’t seem to be the main reason why this march was arranged and why many of them were there

“

• Former Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro gathered thousands of supporters on Sao Paulo's iconic Paulista Avenue on Sunday to demonstrate political strength amid investigations that many believe could land him in jail. The far-right former president, who called the rally after being targeted by a police raid earlier this month investigating an alleged coup attempt, spoke for about 20 minutes to defend himself while reminiscing about his 2019-2022 term.”

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/brazils-bolsonaro-gathers-supporters-show-strength-amid-coup-probe-2024-02-25/

Lula is a Marxist and a hard left wing nut.
Doesn't mean Bolsenaro wasn't a moron or a military dictator sympathiser. Welcome to Brazilian politics.

More than one thing can be right. Lula is an antisemite. (Horseshoe theory)

Hi @LilaDidIt I haven’t heard of the previous organization you shared, but sharing this organization named Standing Together in case it’s of interest to you. They are based in Israel (so cannot be categorized as anti-Zionist like others such as JVP etc), but they do advocate for ending Israel’s illegal occupation of the West Bank, and they are pro-ceasefire which is a brave position to take in Israel given the political climate there. Their co-director Alon-Lee Green is active in organizing some of the Tel Aviv protests.

https://www.instagram.com/standing.together.english?igsh=eWJsYzRldWNvaWQ2

https://www.instagram.com/alonlee?igsh=aTEzeHhmdW91NTE=

For others reading this thread, please note that being pro-ceasefire in Israel is not a "brave position". It's just a position. I know a lot of people like to make Israelis seem like one big uniform group but they're not- they're all different as are their opinions. Only people who either hate everything about Israel or who have never been there or spoken to an Israeli would ever think that being pro-ceasefire would be in any way controversial.

There have been regular protests in Israel about their government's stance on Palestinians since way before October 7th. Please don't let posters manipulate you into thinking otherwise.

I assume this is directed at me. If you don’t think being pro ceasefire or pro Palestinian is a brave or controversial position to take in Israel, particularly right now, then you are the one trying to manipulate thinking about the reality of Israeli politics and public opinion/thinking. Multiple Israelis who have called for a ceasefire or ending the occupation, have openly spoken about being called antisemitic, receiving abuse and death threats. Some have even had to go into hiding.

This below link shows just the most recent example being reported. There are many, many, others that I can share.

I never said Israelis are one uniform group, but it is simply divorced from reality not to accept that Israeli politics has been veering to the right and far right for a long, long time. Those who advocate for peace and negotiations including on the Israeli left have been a shrinking minority for years. It’s only those who want to continue to perpetuate the idealized Disney version of Israel and Zionism, rather than the reality, who deny this. Anyone who wants a healthy dose of truth around what “standing with Israel” really means in practice shouldn’t go to Tel Aviv, they should visit the West Bank - or the graveyard that has become the Gaza Strip.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3yR7btxLV/?igsh=bXh2OHB0NjUwNXE2

Multiple Israelis calling for a ceasefire or an end to occupation have also not been called antisemitic or received abuse or death threats. Again, plenty of people in Israel have been calling for an end to occupation for years.

People should really try to stop demonising as many Israelis as possible, specially on a thread about standing up for Israel.

What does that mean?

I think it means 'I know I was wrong but I'm trying to style it out.'

Regardless of what you choose to believe, calling for an end to the occupation is very much a minority position in Israel and always has been. The bottom line is that if the majority of Israelis were in favour of ending the occupation, it would have ended. The opposite has occurred and over decades Israelis have continued to vote for and elect multiple right wing governments who have aggressively increased settlement expansion and introduced harsher restrictions and oppression towards Palestinians. I am also not aware of any Israelis calling for a ceasefire who haven’t received abuse. If you have any reports or personal experience or stories of those who haven’t then I would be genuinely happy to read/hear them. From what I gather the only people who wouldn’t be on the receiving end of abuse for advocating for a ceasefire would only be because they (understandably) want the see the return of the hostages, not because they disagree with the conduct of Israel’s military operations or the effect it’s having on Palestinians.

And you give me way too much credit. I’m a middle aged mum on an UK parenting website. I can’t and don’t need to demonize Israelis. They are, however, doing a fine enough job of that themselves by continuing to elect racist governments, by continuing to move to and grow illegal settlements, by continuing to financially profit directly and indirectly from systemic apartheid, and by serving in an army that long before the current conflict was known for its brutality.

Should we take it from your username that you are there and know better about the situation on the ground?
Apparently I'm clueless about the intent of a few thousand marchers down the road so I have to work harder to find out what's happening half a world away...though of course some events are so horrific they resonate around the world.

Hopefully some of these recent posts are enough to show other people reading this thread that some posters' views are full of anti-Israel (not pro-Palestine) sentiment. So maybe take everything they say about Israel, Israelis and Israeli society with a massive bucket-full of salt.

No I am not there, but I have been there, multiple times, and I have several friends, family, and acquaintances who are there currently or have lived there previously, so you can’t dismiss my views as being irrelevant or uninformed if that’s what you are trying to do.

Uninformed? No more than many others. Even those at the highest level can only see a certain amount.

There are many different views and yours is just one and I give it the weight I think it deserves.