Standing up for Israel

[Fizzadora]

So, they have got to MN now too.
I just managed to read the previous post before it got deleted for being inflammatory. Not to me it wasn't but then I don't support terrorists.
Many, many people do stand for Israel and not for Hamas (and by definition their supporters; you know who you are).

Just thought I'd share this insightful interview with an Israeli historian that covers the topics of antisemitism as well as current events

Straight from the mouthpiece of Erdoğan.

No, he has nothing to do with Erdogan

Avi Shlaim? You might want to look a bit deeper into him and some of his more spurious nonsense. Not to mention his simping for Assad.

Not the best example.
His views are 'interesting' to say the least.

@fleurneige I am not sure it's the gotcha moment you think it is. And typical that you couldn't get past the frothing of excitement that a Jew was on board.

Try listening to what they said.... it's not the coup you think it is.

And I am pleased 1000s agree with Israel's right to defend itself and exist.

What Israel is doing right now isn't defence. Under international law Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself in a land that it occupies.

Please enlighten us as to where you got your degree from, in International Law?

Just curious 🤔

@inkworks273 please see the original interview if you are confused. The person said that Israel had a right to defend itself after October 7.

That's all your opinion again that your spouting. Not sure on the relevance?

@Ladyjanegreysketle If we all had to be experts on a subject to be able to speak on it, this board wouldn't be very busy.

Maybe that wouldn't be a bad thing.

As the saying goes "opinions are like ar$eh0£e$, everyone's got one "🙄

@Ladyjanegreysketle I'm just going by what experts in international law say. Do you know better than them?

Yes, I listened to the interview. Just because thousands of people believe Israel has a right to defend itself in a land that it occupies, doesn't make it so under international law.

I thought the law was the law. I didn't realise it was an opinion.

Always interesting to see how the law is interpreted by judges though isn't it?

Also interesting to see who judges the judges, there has been some unease about the recent case regarding support of terrorism in the UK.

Much as we would like the law (and the un) to be above reproach, it is still a human tool.

OK then let's have the reference/quote so it can be seen where you're coming from.

@Ladyjanegreysketle Just google it. Lots of sources come up. Hopefully you'll find one that you find reliable.

I'm interested in the one you're quoting, but if you don't have it, fair enough.

Avi Shlaim has a particular perspective on history and he has referred to the documentary evidence as well as his lived experience to back it up. Simon Schama has a different view and he has done the same. Both are entitled to do this and in fact this is what the university and the study of history used to be about. I'm pretty sure that I have seen Avi and Simon on the screen together talking amicably and discussing their positions and the evidence for these.

I agree with Avi that Zionism came from Europe and that the state of Israel was formed at that moment in time to address the issue of traumatised European Jews.

I don't agree with his claim that those Jewish populations living outside of Europe were somehow immune from anti-Semitism and persecution. At that moment in time things were stable and Jews in some ME countries of the time were left alone and had some rights. But that is at that point in time and Avi does tend to look even at that point in time with rose-coloured glasses. Previously, under different Ottoman rulers, the Jews were persecuted and different rulers lapped up Nazi propaganda to fuel very old fires.

The fact that the Jews were eventually forced to leave most Arabic nations attests to underlying and latent anti-Semitism. The boot was always waiting to drop and as the history of the Jewish peoples shows it does eventually drop.

To this end, I disagree with his interpretation whilst still thinking his view offers something to the story and should be part of it (not cancelled).

No surprises there.

Yes.

@inkworks273 that wasn't what I was arguing though so you haven't read it properly.

I also would be interested in your evidence?

Thank you for posting this. He is very easy to listen to. I will look for more of his interviews and perhaps pick up one of his books.

The debate between him and Simon Schama would be interesting.

The debate between him and Simon Schama would be interesting

It would. I don't think I saw a debate - just an acknowledgement of different positions.

I really feel for Avi. His experience as a child must have been awful and I think there is evidence of discrimination against Sephardic Jews in the new Israel in the 1940s.

However, he has a blind spot when he tacitly seems to blame Israel for Iraq choosing to expel him and his family (or making it so they had to leave). That's awful and I know it is awful because it is part of my family history in another context. But Iraq made this choice and Israel cannot be blamed for it.

This is not about 'different positions' or opinions. But about as he said 'new history = real history. That telles the truth rather than a very narrow view from the colonising 'winners'. Big difference.

Pardon? How?