Eliminate Hamas……At any the cost ?

[Itoosurvive]

Israel’s aim is to eliminate Hamas’ fighters.

So far it has cost 25,000 Palestinian lives.
Approximately 300 members of the IDF have been killed.
According to US intelligence (Rad 4 news 18.00 21-1-2024) between 20% and 30% of Hamas' fighters have been killed.
Approximately 65% of buildings have been destroyed.

So, the IDF is about a quarter of the way through the task they have been set.
The following question is directed at anyone who supports the current campaign to remove Hamas.

When does the loss of life become great enough to call a halt to the operation, or should it carry on until Hamas is eliminated, regardless of the cost?

edit, Title should read "At any cost"

I genuinely can't believe the level of insanity I'm reading here. A seemingly serious discussion of how the UN should depose the democratically elected government of Israel because war was declared on Israel by a terrorist regime!

This happened in a Catholic Church in Canada. What happens if someone does it here?
https://twitter.com/Spotlight_Abby/status/1750688805751828915?s=19

https://twitter.com/CatholicArena/status/1750607087120335082?s=19

Reported for a hateful post. It’s got nothing to do with the thread

@Alltheprettyseahorses I agree that nothing like this is going to happen, but it's also pretty insane that Israel has been able to act in the way it has with impunity for so many years in contradiction of International laws.

What international laws is Israel breaking?

@Alltheprettyseahorses Well over the years just a few examples:
Regarding Israeli settlements in occupied territories: violation of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention
and use of white phosphorous.
And then for the current situation there are the part of IHL that forbid collective punishment, use of starvation as a weapon, destruction of civilian infrastructure needed for survival (see 1977 additional protocols) and the rule of proportionality (which is admittedly difficult to define). However, you'll just say "no they haven't!" but personally I'd back the UN and bodies of highly experienced human rights lawyers over a random on Mumsnet. Even our beloved "call me Dave" suggests that Israel has probably violated International law and Biden is getting twitchy so I 'm not sure how much longer anyone is going to be able to deny it.

id suggest you read the breaking news and what Israel has just been requested in the last 20 mins.

@EasterIssland - Great timing!

You asked me who I thought might and I answered. If you have a better option I’d love to hear it.

It would infinitely preferable for Israeli Government and the Hamas to stop behaving like animals killing maiming and traumatising large swathes of the population. In leu of that, given there seems no inclination to stop bombing the Palestinian population I think you need outside help. Of course it’s a disaster and nobody really wants to get involved or pay for the fallout, but what is the alternative?

So are you going to answer any questions? How long will Israel not have a democracy and will only the Knesset be violently overthrown or will local government and legislature be too?

An election in Israel would be better, international economic santions would be better, a trial for anyone who might be guilty of war crimes (as opossed to the entire fucking knesset) would be preferable. Pretty much anything is better than your wet dream of invading a country and dismantling their democracy.

I hate this tactic of asking a poster a question and then bring completely scornful of the answer.

tometome is not in government, so its just her opinion which she's entitled to express. No need to be so unpleasant.

So are you going to answer any questions? How long will Israel not have a democracy
I cannot predict the future but if Israel having a democracy means the bombing of civilians as we have seen then I would imagine until things are put in place to stop that

and will only the Knesset be violently overthrown or will local government and legislature be too?
Are these people criminals? Are they fit to govern?

An election in Israel would be better, if it lead to a government that was humane and fair and stopped killing then obviously
international economic santions would be better, if it lead to a government that was humane and fair and stopped killing then obviously

a trial for anyone who might be guilty of war crimes (as opossed to the entire fucking knesset) would be preferable. if it lead to a government that was humane and fair and stopped killing then obviously

Pretty much anything is better than your wet dream of invading a country and dismantling their democracy. I agree it would be infinitely preferable for the killing to stop and things to be settled internally in a safe and just way. I honestly don’t think that’s possible anymore, so I think support from outside is inevitable.

Your characterisation of my emotional response to all of this couldn’t really be further from the case.

What answer? Until now there hasn't been one.

Statement by the current finance minister:
https://hashiloach.org.il/israels-decisive-plan/

I cannot predict the future but if Israel having a democracy means the bombing of civilians as we have seen then I would imagine until things are put in place to stop that

Are these people criminals? Are they fit to govern?

It seems unlikely that every single member of local government in Israel is a criminal. But then it also seems unlikely that every single member of the Knesset are criminals, but you're saying they are, so much so that they should all be violently removed from power before they're even charged with anything.

As for whether they're fit to govern, that's usually for the electorate to decide. But you want to get rid of democracy in Israel so i don't know how that would be determined. Presumably by your invading army. Would they round up every member of local government and decide whether each is allowed continue to hold their position? Or just round them up and imprison them all?

I think support from outside is inevitable.

Support from outside? You mean invasion and occupation.

You keep talking about wanting to "stop killing". How many people do you think would be killed in a violent invasion and occupation if Israel?

When a country declares war on another country, the victim has no obligation to supply anything to the aggressor. Palestine declared war on Israel and unfortunately war does involve destruction and death, that does not mean it's against international law but if it was then Palestine would be the guilty party. No one is calling for the government of Ukraine to be up before the Hague are they? Come to think of it, there will be some.

Israel is not in Gaza. Israel won the West Bank from Jordan in 1967, before it belonged to Jordan it was a British mandate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire so I'm not sure why Palestinians are settling in the area.

The UN reaction to the conflict has been highly problematic from the start. Cameron should not be in a position to speak on the matter: he is probably the worst, most vindictive and destructive prime minister this country will ever have the misfortune to suffer under and his judgement is execrable on everything.

I think it was actually Israel that officially declared the "state of war". So what is your definition of "declaring war"? Killing large numbers of people? If so did Israel "declare war" when it killed more than 200 people in the West Bank in 2023 BEFORE 7/10. Or is that not enough? Or is it just that killing Palestinians is normalised? And no, they weren't combatants or terrorists.

And stop with the disingenuous "Israel is not in Gaza". It controlled everything going in and out. Destroyed the airport. Banned sea imports. How can they manage their own infrastructure under those restrictions.

Israel is not in Gaza. Israel won the West Bank from Jordan in 1967, before it belonged to Jordan it was a British mandate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire so I'm not sure why Palestinians are settling in the area. is your position that Palestinians come from somewhere else?

Israel is not in Gaza. Israel won the West Bank from Jordan in 1967, before it belonged to Jordan it was a British mandate and before that it was part of the Ottoman Empire so I'm not sure why Palestinians are settling in the area.
They didn’t settle in the area they were always there.
The mandate that bought Palestine into existence is the same one that bought Israel into existence so I’m not sure why you’re questioning it’s validity.

Egypt also controls their sea borders. It even has a massive wall to prevent Palestinians entering. Frankly, Egypt is responsible for not letting aid through - it's a bit much to expect the victim of war and aggression to feed its enemy.

Palestine committed an act of terrorism and war. They declared war on Israel.

I'm not questioning the validity of any treaty. I'm actually sticking to its precepts. The West Bank was not part of Palestine and Jordan lost it in a war they declared on Israel which is obviously outside the original treaty's remit.

Egypt also controls their sea borders

No it doesn't

You need to consult a map @Alltheprettyseahorses Egypt only has a land border with Gaza - no sea involved.

"Palestine" isn't a country. That's part of the problem. No country has declared war on another country.

There is no parallel with Ukraine; Ukraine has not launched a large scale indiscriminate bombing campaign in Russia to "defend itself". Ukraine is fighting a war against an aggressor mainly in its own borders.

I'm not even going to bother with your ridiculous statement about "Palestinians settling in the West Bank." (Misread at first). That's a huge DARVO

Israel has to approve everything crossing the Egyptian border.
You don't seem very well informed about this.

@Auvergne63 You really need to compare like for like.

I had the same comment from Adam Ryan, and I'll respond as I did to him. ie if you can think of a similar situation with any other countries than please tell me about it so there can be a fair comparison.

I think the situation might be comparable to the Khymer Rouge in Cambodia in 1975/1979 - a terrorist organisation taking over a democratic one, but I could be wrong about that.

Secondly, Gaza is 365 km² and has no organized, well trained army and has no navy, air force or bombs. They have no means to defend them or escape the IDF's onslaught.
The IDF are not fighting Gazans. They are fighting a terrorist organisation (Hamas) that has secreted itself among the population. Hamas has weapons and the backing of Iran - which supports State Sponsored Terrorism.

Finally, the Nazi ideology and Hamas' ideology are not comparable, in my opinion.

And I would disagree.
Both Hamas(and it's backer Iran) and the Nazis have/had extremist ideologies driven by adherence to religious doctrine or domination by an ethnic group. Both consider/ed Jews to be an inferior race of people.

The Nazi regime carried out a campaign against male homosexuality and persecuted gay men between 1933 and 1945.
In Iran, same-sex sexual activities are punishable by imprisonment, corporal punishment, fines, or execution. The government of Iran is considered to be one of the most discriminatory towards homosexuals in the world.

This is a better example Lana - war on terror