Israel/Hamas War - Ceasefire

[Toggenburgsaregreat]

Each Saturday we are seeing demonstrations in London where people are marching with placards and calling for a ceasefire in the Hamas/Israel war.

However, it is difficult to know how the supporters of Palestine think this can be achieved? (Interestingly, no calls for Hamas to cease hostilities and return the hostages were heard - so is this really a call for unilateral disarmament?)

And who should Israel negotiate a ceasefire with? Hamas, ISIS, ISSP, The Muslim Brotherhood - all of these groups/any of these groups?

What is it the supporters of Palestine actually want?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68025945

Hard to see how a ceasefire will work with rhetoric like this

The European Parliament passed a resolution stipulating that any call for a ceasefire in the Hamas-Israel war should be conditional on the dismantling of Hamas and the immediate and unconditional release of all the hostages.

That sounds totally fair and reasonable - and somewhat similar to Canada's excellent statement.

While I disagree with Netanyahu on almost everything and I vehemently disagree with his stance on this in particular, I just wanted to point out that Hamas have been calling for the eradication of the state of Israel. So there's no need to try and make out as though this kind of rhetoric is one-sided.

That's just it. The Israelis have a history of being largely positive about a TSS and the Palestinians have a history of largely rejecting it. Hamas want the dissolution of the Israeli state and no one blinks ... When Netanyahu, whatever we might think of him, and I also disagree with him in the main, after provocation of the highest order, says "That won't work" he's called on it and branded anti-Palestine. What do people expect him to do and say given the current context?

I'm not. I posted it because of the chat yesterday that implied Hamas were running a terrorist state and that Israel's siege of Gaza was the equivalent of sanctions against North Korea.

Gaza isn't a state, it is a stateless territory. Netanyahu wants to imply Gaza is a state run by Hamas, to justify bombing it and its citizens. But then also say it isn't and never will be a state when a ceasefire is discussed. It's very contradictory of him.

Netanyahu has been in power in Israel for most of the time since 1995. From the BBC article:

Mr Netanyahu has spent much of his political career opposing Palestinian statehood, boasting just last month that he was proud to have prevented its establishment, so his latest remarks come as no surprise.

@YetAnotherSpartacus but Netanyahu didn't just say he doesn't want a two state solution because of the October 7th attacks. He made it clear that he has always done everything in his power to prevent there ever being a Palestinian state and will continue to do so.
Netanyahu is annoyed and it can be shown in his speech because even other higher ranking ministers are now getting frustrated with him.

Oh and let's not forget, at a time of heightened tensions he also went on to say that hey it's not just me that doesn't want it but most Israelis also don't want a Palestinian state 🤦‍♀️
The man is a idiot, I have seen Eisenkot is calling for another deal to be taken to release the hostages, although not for a permanent ceasefire but approx month long truce

He also says that anyone who says Hamas can be fully defeated is lying. Here's more about the deal he thinks should be negotiated and why for those who are interested

https://www.timesofisrael.com/in-challenge-to-pm-eisenkot-says-talk-of-absolute-defeat-of-hamas-a-tall-tale/

@Humdingerydoo it's not a way one street and they have repeatedly called for if. They have also rejected years of a two state solution.
And of course it's all Netanyahu's fault.

Netanyahu is annoyed and it can be shown in his speech because even other higher ranking ministers are now getting frustrated with him.

@Parkingt111 have you got any direct quotes of them saying they are frustrated with him?

@stomachameleon I have been reading various articles on times of Israel which has been talking about the growing rift. But you can read the one above I posted

And this one
https://www.timesofisrael.com/as-cracks-widen-in-coalition-national-unity-members-skip-cabinet-meeting/

Well that doesn't accord with the anti-Palestine posters, does it? Don't you know they're all basically Hamas. Even the babies.

Thanks for signposting those @Parkingt111

Really? Hamas might want the dissolution of Israeli state (which isn't disputed) but can't physically achieve this as they have no army, navy, planes or bombs.
On the other hand, Netanyahu and his colleagues have made quite clear they intentions regarding the Palestinian people, by words and deeds.
Holding a map of Israel where Gaza and the West Bank do not appear is a clear message.

@HeidiInTheBigCity

"If there is no ceasefire then Palestinian civilians will continue to be killed by Israeli forces.

If there is a ceasefire then Israeli civilians will continue to be killed by Hamas."

+++

So that basis would see calls for a ceasefire now as accepting future and further Israeli civilian deaths and casualties by Hamas as an acceptable price to pay in order to stop Palestinian civilian deaths and casualties today.

@stomachameleon there's also this one which is specifically in related to the hostages

https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-said-frittering-away-hostage-deal-by-unilaterally-toughening-demands/

@Parkingt111

"anyone who says Hamas can be fully defeated is lying"

+++

On that I think most reasonable people would agree. Of course Israel might be able to "defeat" Hamas but it will simply re appear as Hamas 2.0 or more likely a more extreme PIJ.

A better alternative is to show ordinary Palestinians in Gaza a viable alternative and hope by making the West Bank and Fatah an economic success and at least in the short term stop the building of Israeli settlements in the West Bank (with a view to removing them in the longer term).

@1dayatatime i have to agree with you on that.

Ordinary Gazans would then be able to make a choice between being part of that successful West Bank or not - but you cannot force them to do so- it must be something they want and I genuinely believe most people would prefer economic prosperity and stability over political ideology and chaos.

But this approach would be a threat to Hamas and would actively disrupt it so in order for this to work Hamas needs to removed / leave Gaza.

That's an interesting article.

@1dayatatime I think most people would want a life of safety, peace and prosperity and the right of self determination.
I don't think it can be ignored though, that the Palestinians have faced decades of oppression and the grievances are not just one sided.
The situation in the OPT right now is absolutely dire, but is generally overlooked because of what is happening in Gaza

From the former Saudi Ambassador...

Actually he has a pretty strong point.

Good to see there are at least some sensible voices in this mess.