South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

Read that 50% of these ICJ interim orders are ignored and the consequences of that are unclear

@Efacsen so what is the actual point of it all then?

We might see lots of people unwilling to fight in the IDF?

None really. It’s grandstanding and backscratching by SA. Some of us were saying this pages ago.

Well looked at the other way 50% of nations co-operate with the interim rulings so it's not a totally pointless exercise

If Israel is told they cannot pursue war/defend themselves against Hamas (depending on your perspective) then say they do comply - what happens to them? Hamas will have no such ruling against it and Yahya Sinwar has made his intentions to continue attacking Israel perfectly clear.
So then what?

@Efacsen very true

If Israel is told they cannot pursue war/defend themselves against Hamas (depending on your perspective) then say they do comply - what happens to them?

Netanyahu says they aren't going to comply - I believe him - so why waste time and energy on hypothetical 'what ifs'?

Hamas will have no such ruling against it and Yahya Sinwar has made his intentions to continue attacking Israel perfectly clear

Ceasefires always involve both parties to a conflict - otherwise it's not a ceasefire

CIA say Sinwar along with hostages is surrounded in deep tunnels in Khan Younis - surely his days are numbered?

The act of suing people doesn't mean Sinn Féin reps are being truthful. Indeed, they have become known for using the legal mechanism of suing to intimidate various people and not too long ago lost a significant case on. No, they use lawfare against individuals.

In the hours following Hamas' attack on Israel, Provisional Sinn Féin's youth wing, Ógra Shinn Féin, posted the Palestinian flag on X in solidarity. To demonstrate how this is in solidarity with Hamas following the attack, consider the example of the Irish Republican group, Gael Force Art, unfurling a massive Palestinian flag on Belfast's Black Mountain proclaiming ‘solidarity with the Palestinian people who launched their biggest operation in fifty years against the rogue state of Israel’. Gerry Adams shared a picture of the flag on Twitter/ X.

This is how Provisional Sinn Féin and/or their reps express solidarity in the hours following the Hamas attack and before the gruesome details of that attack became publicly available.

Following the Hamas attack on the day, Sinn Fein MP for South Down said on X: “Palestinians must be free to live without oppression, apartheid & colonisation.

As JFK said: "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable."

International actors must urgently stand up for peace, justice & dignity for all Free Palestine.”

UUP leader Doug Beattie replied: “Unbelievably crass remarks from an MP as bodies are dragged through the streets. #ShameFein.”

Via the use of JFK's quote, we again find the implied solidarity with Hamas in the hours following the attack on Israel.

Again, we remember the historical stand of solidarity between Provisional Sinn Féin/Provisional IRA and Palestinian terrorist groups.

Indeed, in 2020, PSF hosted an online event which included reps of Fatah and Hamas - both terrorist groups with a political wing and the same kind of setup as PSF/PIRA. Dr Basem Naim from Hamas was one of them.

When the details started to come through on what had happened, Provisional Sinn Féin and their reps started to try moderating their words and/or actions.

But this raised further questions and problems for Provisional Sinn Féin at home. On 9th October, MLD said the taking of hostages was wrong yet the same kind of thing PIRA did isn't condemned in the same terms.

The reality is, Provisional Sinn Féin STILL seeks a vindication of the actions of the Provisional IRA.

On Hamas, the international mood was misjudged initially which days later led to some moderation.

As I said, Provisional Sinn Féin is very skilled in speaking with a forked tongue. 🤷‍♂️

If you're from the Republic of Ireland or elsewhere, I really wouldn't have expected you to have seen the examples from Northern Ireland branch of Provisional Sinn Féin.

OK I'm not reading all that. I take from the first bit that no Sinn Féin rep made any such statement but a former rep did repost something clearly inappropriate and offensive.

Also can't take anyone saying "Provisional Sinn Féin" seriously in 2024.

"Were"?

No, they still are "two arms of the same body".

A better way to put it is Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA are two wings of the same bird = Provisional Army Council.

Nice try at the Bias thing, but that's not a serious argument. Indeed, UK and Republic of Ireland Governments stand by their respective security agencies who state PAC still controls PSF and PIRA. The structures of PIRA is still there and they do still have some weapons. How do you think they carried out at least 45 murders since the Belfast Agreement including Robert McCartney and Paul Quinn?!

Christ. 🤦‍♂️

That’s a good point- but Israel will have to negotiate in good faith if it wants peace and the current massacre has been a big set back for peace (as was 7/10).
Interesting to draw parallels with other post colonisation outcomes. When have other colonists ever given up land freely and without a blood bath? This is different as Israeli are defending their right to land that they feel they have a right to - although not as their own country for several millennia.
When was the last time Israel negotiated with Palestinians in good faith and went some degree to meeting their demands? The Oslo Accords led the death of Rabin at the hand of an Israeli.

Really difficult to know what would come next- but as many have said- you can’t kill an ideology.

You're not reading it, but made a judgement only to ignore the example of PSF's MP. Classic! 🤣

It's still not good that Ógra Shinn Féin expressed solidarity, you know. Provisional Sinn Féin is the parent party.

Sinn Féin's full title is still Provisional Sinn Féin. You might prefer, like the party itself, to drop that in public relations as the term "Provisional" simply reminds people of their terrorist history.

I can't take anyone seriously who thinks it isn't relevant. 🤦‍♂️

That’s a good point- but Israel will have to negotiate in good faith if it wants peace and the current massacre has been a big set back for peace (as was 7/10).

Are you suggesting Hamas as one of the negotiating parties? Do you think that's realistic given their ongoing stated intentions?

An ideology doesn't necessarily have to be killed. It can simply be weakened so much that it struggles to gain followers. Over time that can lead to ideological death.

Once a terrorist group or groups cross all their lines according to their ideology, they discredit their ideology since it views anything else as ideological defeat.

Ideologically defeated groups cannot mount an effective attack in future. For example, PIRA suffered an ideological defeat to the point where absolutely no Republican group such as RIRA, CIRA, NIRA can mount an effective attack. Instead these groups admit they cannot do so and claim any attacks they do is for symbolic reasons.

An ideological defeat may be all that's required. Personally, I think a military, ideological and political defeat for Hamas is ultimately required for a real, lasting and long term stability in the Middle East.

Iran must be isolated too since they're at the centre of terrorism in the region.

The original post talked about Mary Lou McDonald in London gathering support for a Palestinian ceasefire and you said as far as you were aware no one from Sinn Fein had come out against the Hamas attacks. It was pointed out that Mary Lou, the leader of Sinn Fein, one of the biggest political parties in Ireland had condemned the attacks in the Dail. I am not aware of the examples you have given and they are really bad but the leader of the party, and a TD, who represents the parties views did come out against the attacks. Maybe people in Northern Ireland refer to them as provincial Sinn Fein but they are only known as Sinn Fein in the republic. I am no shinners fan but we can't deny that politically they are now very popular both North and South, it is very possible they could be in government North and South in the not too distant future.

It's tiring seeing you misrepresent northern Irish issues on these threads all the time.

Edit: I don't want to interact with you but I feel someone should correct the lies at least.

Personally I think the war will have given new generations of people the motivation to support Hamas aims, regardless of whether it is stopped now or when "Hamas has been eradicated"
I think if it were stopped now Hamas would be very distracted for a long time rebuilding Gaza and basic infrastructure.

I think if Hamas are eradicated then the rebuilding is going to require even more intensive effort and £££ and its not clear who is going to do that.

I also think there were still be the vulnerability for another Hamas-like group to run Gaza/Palestine because of the sheer scale of destruction Israel has unleashed on the population.

In return somecat what do you think will happen if Netanyahu achieves his aim of eradicating Hamas?

But surely its obvious all this relentless bombing of Gaza is just creating the hamas fighters of the future? It would be hard to grow up in Gaza now without a deep feeling of hatred and resentment. I feel the world is a scary place right now and will be even scarier in the future.

Did anyone see the interview with Anthony Hopkins about his new role playing Nicholas Winton? He said he asked Winton if he felt humanity had learned a lesson from the holocaust. Winton replied NO. He said until we learn to compromise and talk to each other no lessons will be learned. He's right of course.

In return somecatwhat do you think will happen if Netanyahu achieves his aim of eradicating Hamas?

There has already been quite a lot of talk about who will be in interim control of Gaza (suggestions of a Saudi-led coalition, for instance) and who would be responsible for the rebuilding investment.

I personally think that all this will be feasible only in the absence of Hamas. I don't think that rebuilding will "keep them busy" at all if continuing to attempt to attack Israel is the priority, and also the vast sums of rebuilding money will be diverted to facilitate that.

Here is recent (9 January) footage of Ismail Haniyah:
https://twitter.com/DaveAtherton20/status/1746459274845335770

"We should hold on to the moment of the victory of October 7 and build upon it; time is on our side; donations to Gaza are not humanitarian aid but financial jihad".

So no, I don't think these would be suitable people to rebuild Gaza in the best interests of ordinary people, or to be a partner for ongoing peace.

I read the US will be rebuilding Gaza

Someone is going to make an awful lot of money out of this

The Hamas senior leadership currently make billions from Gaza as it happens.

But anyway, I appreciate that this isn't really on topic any more, apologies.

You didn't really answer the question about what would happen if Hamas were eradicated. How do you see the future after that, with no Hamas? Do you think there will be peace? What will it look like?

To be fair, I did later note that MLD later moderated, or tried to, her party's* *actual stance in reference to the hostages taken by Hamas. This only raised further questions for them in relation to PIRA.

They're very good at speaking with forked tongues, I'll give them that.

At least you accept that the posts and shows of solidarity in the hours following Hamas attack is really bad. Deirdre Hargey was another one following the attack.

Anyway, MLD was trying to do damage limitation once PSF saw how it was being received at home and internationally.

Better for them to have condemned straightaway like all reasonable minded people did. But their longstanding links and support for PLO/Hamas.....🤔

Oh, they call themselves "Sinn Féin" in Northern Ireland too. Its just a PR thing as "Provisional" brings up PIRA and PAC again and again for them. Yet they continue to seek glorification and vindication of PIRA. Ironic then they separate themselves along the border to get around rules but portray themselves as an "all Ireland" party for PR!

No, it's both reasonable and valid to state their full name - Provisional Sinn Féin. PSF and SF means the same thing as does PIRA and IRA.

Use whichever one you want. I'm sticking with "Provisional Sinn Féin" and "Provisional IRA". 🤷‍♂️

I very much dislike the way that this war is often framed as a binary case for Israel’s government. As if the only way to bring security for the people of Israel is to do exactly what they have done, or completely surrender to the existential threat of Hamas.
Ideally the Israeli government wouldn’t have reacted in a way that perpetuates the cycle of hate and violence, then whatever comes next would be less difficult.
I’m certainly no expert, but as a lay person I would suggest they continue to defend themselves in a targeted way while ensuring Palestinians are given dignity, independence and their human rights.
Hamas exists for a reason, work harder to understand those reasons and enable the people of Palestine to achieve their human needs. Just like there are factions within any government or organisation there will be factions with Hamas and Palestine. They aren’t one homogenous group who are all hell bent on the violent destruction of Jewish people. As scary and uncomfortable as it is I think this is what needs to happen, and that it is possible to achieve peace again.
Also, I expect more from a democratic government of a prosperous country, than an organisation that has been born out of oppression and a quest for significance. So when what happened on the October 7th, which I find horrific, is used as a way to justify this, I find no merit in that argument. Which is sad because energy and time that could be used to support the legitimate suffering of Jewish people recovering from October 7th is then directed elsewhere.