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Conflict in the Middle East

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

1000 replies

HeidiInTheBigCity · 30/12/2023 03:04

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza
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PeasfullPerson · 13/01/2024 22:14

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 22:05

FWIW I follow people like Ben Goldsmith, Aviva Klompas, Eylon Levy, John Aziz, Campaign Against Antisemitism, Khaled Hassan, David Collier, Loay Alshareef, Harris Sultan, Oz Katerji, Gad Saad and Shaiel Ben-Ephraim.

@PeasfullPerson sorry if I questioned your motives, absolutely nothing personal to you, just some run ins with other less than good faith posters previously.

A lot of it is also the algorithm, I get a lot of people in my For You feed that I don't actually follow as I'm sure everyone does.

Edited

No problem I completely see why that could concern you. Thanks for sharing, when I get time I will look at those accounts so I can gain more understanding into alternative perspectives.

WhatsTheUseOfWorrying · 13/01/2024 22:15

AdamRyan · 13/01/2024 21:42

I've noticed very similar among right wing politicians here and in the US too. I can't figure out why "standing with Israel" is such a strong message for the right wing but it certainly seems to be. I was wondering if it was a cynical play pre-election to reinvigorate the "Labour are antisemitic" angle but maybe there is a global issue at play. Very puzzling.

The fixated opposition to Israel comes from the extreme right and the extreme left. There is no equivalent level of support for Israel on the political spectrum. People on the centre-right and -left uphold Israel’s right to exist and to defend itself from attack, just as they would any other liberal democracy.

The sort of people who belong to the PSC and other professional anti-Israel groups confuse the absence of hatred for Israel, as the only Jewish state and the homeland, with unthinking support for it. I suspect that’s because people like that have a preconception that Israel and Jews are inherently wicked.

Kindatired · 13/01/2024 22:15

DownNative · 13/01/2024 21:38

The Shinner isn't there to "encourage a huge gathering of Palestinian supporters to embrace the path of peace".

Last I checked, PSF hadn't condemned Hamas. Indeed, several of their members were immediately in solidarity with Hamas on 7th October. Especially with the claptrap of equating PIRA in H-Block with the Nakba which is mad anyway.

It's pretty clear to me PSF/PIRA speak with a forked tongue.

And the path of peace was "chosen" by PSF/PIRA because they were defeated. The propaganda of the peace process has you thinking otherwise. 🤷‍♂️

BTW, Provisional Sinn Féin is NOT "previously the political arm of PIRA". The reality is PIRA still exists with PIRA and PSF controlled by the Provisional Army Council. PIRA hasn't gone away according to the security assessments. PSNI Terrorism Unit still deals with PIRA to this day.

That’s technically the case but Sinn Fein and the IRA were pretty much two arms of the same body
You would obviously have a different perspective given your user name

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 22:16

@HeidiInTheBigCity I've not been aware of any posts from the people you've mentioned that I found blatantly racist. Probably for me Gad Saad goes closest to the wire on that front, in terms of the big accounts I follow.

In terms of being strident or partisan, in the case of Levy it's quite literally his job description so I find the tone expected.

Parkingt111 · 13/01/2024 22:25

There is also 'standing together' on Instagram and X if anyone is interested. They are a Israeli Arab and Jewish organisation working together for peace

anotherlevel · 13/01/2024 22:35

Israel reaches a deal with Qatar to get medication to the captives in Gaza.

www.instagram.com/p/C2AlY3YSibV/?igsh=bDVqbTRtZzYwYXV2

HeidiInTheBigCity · 13/01/2024 22:36

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 22:16

@HeidiInTheBigCity I've not been aware of any posts from the people you've mentioned that I found blatantly racist. Probably for me Gad Saad goes closest to the wire on that front, in terms of the big accounts I follow.

In terms of being strident or partisan, in the case of Levy it's quite literally his job description so I find the tone expected.

Edited

In the case of Levy ... yes, I would have to agree. He is, essentially, a professional propagandist.

Still "hard to swallow" if you happen to have loved ones who are Palestinian, mind!

But I would fully agree that this is his job - I might have to resign in protest if it were mine (mind, I am seriously considering doing just that because a branch of my company that I have never been in touch with serves the IDF as a client, and I am beyond disgusted!) - but: fair point: this is what he is being paid to do!

Personally, I find the obviously somehow centrally orchestrated propaganda effort (started about a week before Christmas - has since become quite popular) of "matter-of-factly low-level justifying violence against children" almost unbearable.

(Will not share posts - but they sicken me ... content ranges from "but they are all trained to be murderers and rapists" to "children used to [insert any variety of military objectives]".)

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plusjamais · 13/01/2024 22:54

@SomeCatFromJapan I follow a couple of those accounts too. I find Katerji's perspective really interesting as a British-Lebanese Muslim who's mega switched on about antisemitism from the left, and he doesn't seem to suffer fools. The one on your list who I really cannot take is Collier. I don't follow him but I've seen more than enough of his tweets through the algorithm to know I don't want to.

Polka83 · 13/01/2024 23:03

It’s really hard for any pro- Israeli propaganda to fight the images of terrified shaking Gazan children covered in dust, or being pulled out of rubble.

That 70% of deaths in Gaza are women and children belittles the idea that the bombing has been targeted.

There is a such a strong genetic link between ME Jews and Gazans- the Gazan children were just born on the wrong side of a border.

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 23:38

It’s really hard for any pro- Israeli propaganda to fight the images of terrified shaking Gazan children covered in dust, or being pulled out of rubble.

Are you saying anyone or any account who is pro-Israel is a propaganda account?

Bear in mind most are not trying to "fight" those images, they just centre different conversations, be that around the terrorist attacks, the plight of the hostages, the progress of the war, concerns about global anti-Semitism and so on.

Some may question the specifics of the casualty figures as they originate from a Hamas government ministry. Not because they're attempting to disseminate propaganda but because they get the figures from different sources and have more faith in those.

HeidiInTheBigCity · 13/01/2024 23:48

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 23:38

It’s really hard for any pro- Israeli propaganda to fight the images of terrified shaking Gazan children covered in dust, or being pulled out of rubble.

Are you saying anyone or any account who is pro-Israel is a propaganda account?

Bear in mind most are not trying to "fight" those images, they just centre different conversations, be that around the terrorist attacks, the plight of the hostages, the progress of the war, concerns about global anti-Semitism and so on.

Some may question the specifics of the casualty figures as they originate from a Hamas government ministry. Not because they're attempting to disseminate propaganda but because they get the figures from different sources and have more faith in those.

Edited

If you ignore for a second that the term "propaganda", these days, carries negative connotations: yes, of course every "pro-Israel" account is propaganda. As is every "pro-Palestine" one. And every "pro-climate action", "anti-foxhunting" ... you name it! ... account!

I quite like the Cambridge dictionary definition of information, ideas, opinions, or images that give one part of an argument, which are broadcast, published, etc. in order to influence people's opinions.

By this definition, propaganda is neither inherently good nor bad, true nor false - just: "designed to influence".

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Polka83 · 13/01/2024 23:50

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 23:38

It’s really hard for any pro- Israeli propaganda to fight the images of terrified shaking Gazan children covered in dust, or being pulled out of rubble.

Are you saying anyone or any account who is pro-Israel is a propaganda account?

Bear in mind most are not trying to "fight" those images, they just centre different conversations, be that around the terrorist attacks, the plight of the hostages, the progress of the war, concerns about global anti-Semitism and so on.

Some may question the specifics of the casualty figures as they originate from a Hamas government ministry. Not because they're attempting to disseminate propaganda but because they get the figures from different sources and have more faith in those.

Edited

Propaganda usually refers to that developed or sponsored by a state to influence people’s opinions of it be distorting facts.
This wouldn’t include individual posters giving their own views of a situation.
My post was in reference to one by @HeidiInTheBigCity when she referenced children

“Will not share posts - but they sicken me ... content ranges from "but they are all trained to be murderers and rapists" to "children used to [insert any variety of military objectives]”

SomeCatFromJapan · 13/01/2024 23:59

Fair answers from you both there.

balamo · 14/01/2024 00:13

stomachameleon · 13/01/2024 21:16

@balamo probably help if you spell it correctly. Thanks for the factual breakdown though.

@balamo probably help if you spell it correctly.

Ah, the spelling is the only inaccurate part of my post then.

By the way, your sentence is rather comical considering the poor grammar.

saveallthewhales · 14/01/2024 00:17

Well said Mr Sunak.

www.thejc.com/news/uk/uk-says-south-africas-genocide-case-endangers-peace-weoyg5wz

stomachameleon · 14/01/2024 00:22

@balamo irony.

THShaw · 14/01/2024 00:58

This reply has been deleted

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HeidiInTheBigCity · 14/01/2024 01:27

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Credit where credit is due:

Somewhat shockingly, The Onion have had some of the least biased coverage of the entire US media landscape.

No, I have no fucking idea how I feel about that one!

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EasterIssland · 14/01/2024 06:56

BREAKING: Namibia says it 'rejects Germany’s support of the genocidal intent of the racist Israeli state' and says that 'Germany committed the first genocide of the 20th century' on Namibian soil

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1746284151479963710

https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1746284151479963710

ConnieCounter · 14/01/2024 08:13

DownNative · 13/01/2024 21:38

The Shinner isn't there to "encourage a huge gathering of Palestinian supporters to embrace the path of peace".

Last I checked, PSF hadn't condemned Hamas. Indeed, several of their members were immediately in solidarity with Hamas on 7th October. Especially with the claptrap of equating PIRA in H-Block with the Nakba which is mad anyway.

It's pretty clear to me PSF/PIRA speak with a forked tongue.

And the path of peace was "chosen" by PSF/PIRA because they were defeated. The propaganda of the peace process has you thinking otherwise. 🤷‍♂️

BTW, Provisional Sinn Féin is NOT "previously the political arm of PIRA". The reality is PIRA still exists with PIRA and PSF controlled by the Provisional Army Council. PIRA hasn't gone away according to the security assessments. PSNI Terrorism Unit still deals with PIRA to this day.

Can you show me where Sinn Fein reps supported Hamas? I'm surprised I missed that. I heard several of them condemning Hamas and their attack on Oct 7th in a Dáil debate a few months ago so you're wrong on that one.

One SF TD is sueing an Irish Times journalist for saying essentially what you said in your post by the way.

Efacsen · 14/01/2024 08:34

Netanyahu suggests Israel would ignore court order ordering Gaza ceasefire

Israel will pursue its war against Hamas until victory and will not be stopped by anyone, including the world court, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said in a defiant speech Saturday, as the fighting in Gaza approached the 100-day mark.

Just in case anyone was wondering

anotherlevel · 14/01/2024 08:45

Efacsen · 14/01/2024 08:34

Netanyahu suggests Israel would ignore court order ordering Gaza ceasefire

Israel will pursue its war against Hamas until victory and will not be stopped by anyone, including the world court, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said in a defiant speech Saturday, as the fighting in Gaza approached the 100-day mark.

Just in case anyone was wondering

To be honest, this indicates to me that he is guilty of all the claims levelled against him and that he is aware that the ICJ would rule against him in this case.

Is there any possibility that any temporary orders placed on Israel to cease the war can be enforced if Netanyahu disobeys them, should South Africa win the case?

He's only proving their case, right, by continuing?

Polka83 · 14/01/2024 08:49

Efacsen · 14/01/2024 08:34

Netanyahu suggests Israel would ignore court order ordering Gaza ceasefire

Israel will pursue its war against Hamas until victory and will not be stopped by anyone, including the world court, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has said in a defiant speech Saturday, as the fighting in Gaza approached the 100-day mark.

Just in case anyone was wondering

No- really wouldn’t surprise me that he would continue despite a court order from the ICJ. What would we call the IDF and Netanyahu then? War criminals? Terrorists? BBC don’t call Hamas terrorists as they were once elected.
It might bring those who supply them weapons into the court arena though- Biden already in one trial on Us soil and SA looking to bring another.

SomeCatFromJapan · 14/01/2024 08:52

What do people envisage happening if the war is stopped and Hamas still has control of Gaza?

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