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Conflict in the Middle East

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

1000 replies

HeidiInTheBigCity · 30/12/2023 03:04

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza
OP posts:
Thread gallery
89
Desertrose2023 · 11/01/2024 20:27

anotherlevel · 11/01/2024 19:55

@FOJN they'll probably put the blame on using the wrong missile again. 🙄

I think we can all predict how Israel’s defense will go. The same narrative Eylon Lev used a few weeks ago when the case was announced. No shockers there.

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 21:07

QueenRania · 11/01/2024 19:11

Thanks. She is no doubt a beautiful elegant lady inside and out

The Jordanian Queen is certainly very beautiful.

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 21:10

ConnieCounter · 11/01/2024 19:17

You don't even name your source but what you have posted is clearly pro-Israeli propaganda. As a previous poster said it'll probably be along the lines of Israel's defence but that doesn't make it correct or even convincing.

"You don't even name your source but what you have posted is clearly pro-Israeli propaganda. "

Oh OK. It is briefing notes fomr Legal advocacy group UK Lawyers for Israel.
They have created a series of briefing notes on how international law applies to Israel’s war against Hamas to equip non-experts with the tools to defend the Jewish state and counter the large amount of misinformation on social media.

This seems to be notes on defence rather than spinning propaganda?

ConnieCounter · 11/01/2024 21:31

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 21:10

"You don't even name your source but what you have posted is clearly pro-Israeli propaganda. "

Oh OK. It is briefing notes fomr Legal advocacy group UK Lawyers for Israel.
They have created a series of briefing notes on how international law applies to Israel’s war against Hamas to equip non-experts with the tools to defend the Jewish state and counter the large amount of misinformation on social media.

This seems to be notes on defence rather than spinning propaganda?

It's genocide denial. It's propaganda.

AdamRyan · 11/01/2024 22:03

stomachameleon · 11/01/2024 18:12

It's just so hypocritical.
We post about the sexual assaults and violence on 7/10 and are told to prove it.
No evidence apparently:
Now it's too graphic and disrespectful?
And yet Israel was forced to publish the footage to the media (that the terrorists had filmed) because people doubted what Israel had said.
And the irony of fluttering your fan and saying I don't see footage and pictures for Gaza is laughable as it's constant. The threads on here are full of reports (unchecked) from social media. I can name the worst offenders.
And there were lots of personal stories in todays hearing from South Africa.
Unbelievable.

Posters constantly rehash the videos and evidence of harm to those women at the drop of a hat.
Shani Louk was a pacifist, her mother has given numerous interviews about the amazing loving woman she was. Yet what most people know about her now is the manner of her death and what happened to her body afterwards.
It's disrespectful to her and her family.

FOJN · 11/01/2024 22:03

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 21:10

"You don't even name your source but what you have posted is clearly pro-Israeli propaganda. "

Oh OK. It is briefing notes fomr Legal advocacy group UK Lawyers for Israel.
They have created a series of briefing notes on how international law applies to Israel’s war against Hamas to equip non-experts with the tools to defend the Jewish state and counter the large amount of misinformation on social media.

This seems to be notes on defence rather than spinning propaganda?

Claim: Israel is committing genocide

In the submission south Africa made to the ICJ there are 6 pages of quotes from Israeli officials indicating their genocidal intent, including one from a government minister suggestion Israel should drop a nuke in Gaza. Their remarks are not limited to Hamas, even in recent days officials have commented about emptying Gaza or killing everyone who lives there. If 1% of the US population was killed it would equate to more than 3 million people, in the UK it would be approximately 680000 people. Israel is counting every Palestinian man killed in Gaza as a terrorist, do you think it's feasible that every man in Gaza is a member of Hamas?

Claim: Israel illegally targets hospitals

They are. You cannot bomb a civilian target and then look for evidence to support your suspicions. You must have evidence prior to attacking a civilian target to justify denying it protected status. It's fairly clear that in most cases the IDF have not had sufficient justification before bombing hospitals and other civilian infrastructure and have then had to fabricate weak "evidence after the fact". The "evidence" from Al Shifa has not amount to much yet, the IDF have provided no evidence that a hole in the ground on the boundary of the large hospital complex was connected to any tunnel network which lead into the hospital

Claim: Israel’s operation is disproportionate

There is international law on what constitutes proportionality please look it up rather than accept information from a biased source. You cannot level an entire apartment block to take out a single low level Hamas member or destroy an empty office, that is disproportionate and exactly the kind of thing the IDF have been doing. One third of casualties are men, that is how Israel is fabricating it's success at taking out Hamas, it's a lie.

Claim: Israel is illegally preventing aid getting into Gaza

Israel is not being asked to supply Gaza, it is being asked not to obstruct the entry of aid. Despite the Rafah crossing being in the border between Gaza and Egypt, Israel controls everything that goes in or out of that border. People are starving and do not have clean water and Israel is obstructing attempts to get these things to the civilian population, that is collective punishment and is against international law. Given the control Israel experts over almost everything they are a defacto occupying force DND as such they do have certain obligations to the population of Gaza.

It's quite exhausting at this stage in the game to still be discussing these points again. All the relevant international law is a Google search away, as is the South Africa submission to the ICJ. I would recommend doing your own research.

EasterIssland · 11/01/2024 22:26

SOUTH AFRICAN LAWYERS WANT TO START PROCEEDINGS AGAINST AMERICAN GOVERNMENT

This is for being complicit in international crimes carried out by Israel against the people of Palestine.

https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1745519349534748935

https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1745519349534748935

Pinkpetunias88 · 11/01/2024 22:28

I HRTFT but it is worth noting that the case filed by South Africa is only the latest of a long series of anti-Israel positions the country has taken.
In recent years, its historic alliance with the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) has shifted to also encompass Hamas, the antisemitic terror organization that controls Gaza.

Also joining the South African delegation is former U.K. opposition leader Jeremy Corbyn, a fierce critic of Israel who recently refused to call Hamas a terror group. Corbyn was ousted by the Labour Party after a report revealed rampant antisemitism that forced a number of Jewish members and lawmakers to leave the party at the time.
A victory for him would offer redemption.

SomeCatFromJapan · 11/01/2024 22:30

I wonder if South Africa will stop accepting its USAID money?

Pinkpetunias88 · 11/01/2024 22:36

SomeCatFromJapan · 11/01/2024 22:30

I wonder if South Africa will stop accepting its USAID money?

That's a good question, however, there is nothing stopping US turning the tap off.

I am very glad that UK stopped Aid to South Africa in 2015

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 22:37

FOJN · 11/01/2024 22:03

Claim: Israel is committing genocide

In the submission south Africa made to the ICJ there are 6 pages of quotes from Israeli officials indicating their genocidal intent, including one from a government minister suggestion Israel should drop a nuke in Gaza. Their remarks are not limited to Hamas, even in recent days officials have commented about emptying Gaza or killing everyone who lives there. If 1% of the US population was killed it would equate to more than 3 million people, in the UK it would be approximately 680000 people. Israel is counting every Palestinian man killed in Gaza as a terrorist, do you think it's feasible that every man in Gaza is a member of Hamas?

Claim: Israel illegally targets hospitals

They are. You cannot bomb a civilian target and then look for evidence to support your suspicions. You must have evidence prior to attacking a civilian target to justify denying it protected status. It's fairly clear that in most cases the IDF have not had sufficient justification before bombing hospitals and other civilian infrastructure and have then had to fabricate weak "evidence after the fact". The "evidence" from Al Shifa has not amount to much yet, the IDF have provided no evidence that a hole in the ground on the boundary of the large hospital complex was connected to any tunnel network which lead into the hospital

Claim: Israel’s operation is disproportionate

There is international law on what constitutes proportionality please look it up rather than accept information from a biased source. You cannot level an entire apartment block to take out a single low level Hamas member or destroy an empty office, that is disproportionate and exactly the kind of thing the IDF have been doing. One third of casualties are men, that is how Israel is fabricating it's success at taking out Hamas, it's a lie.

Claim: Israel is illegally preventing aid getting into Gaza

Israel is not being asked to supply Gaza, it is being asked not to obstruct the entry of aid. Despite the Rafah crossing being in the border between Gaza and Egypt, Israel controls everything that goes in or out of that border. People are starving and do not have clean water and Israel is obstructing attempts to get these things to the civilian population, that is collective punishment and is against international law. Given the control Israel experts over almost everything they are a defacto occupying force DND as such they do have certain obligations to the population of Gaza.

It's quite exhausting at this stage in the game to still be discussing these points again. All the relevant international law is a Google search away, as is the South Africa submission to the ICJ. I would recommend doing your own research.

I thought the source was credible and have now done my own research and agree with the source - which was based upon Israel's lawyers. Sure this is bias - but so is SA as they support Palestine - also bias.

Bias is a way of life. We are all biased in one way or another.
Thank you for youropinion anyway.

anotherlevel · 11/01/2024 22:37

EasterIssland · 11/01/2024 22:26

SOUTH AFRICAN LAWYERS WANT TO START PROCEEDINGS AGAINST AMERICAN GOVERNMENT

This is for being complicit in international crimes carried out by Israel against the people of Palestine.

https://twitter.com/ShaykhSulaiman/status/1745519349534748935

Good!

CluelessPepperoni · 11/01/2024 22:45

I'm not sure why Israel and their supporters are so against this hearing? I would have thought that it's a good thing that they can put this to bed. They can stand up and explain why they are starving children and why they are denying them healthcare and then everyone who misunderstands their actions as being genocidal will understand once and for all why it is necessary for them to do this. So many of Israels actions, inducing famine, taking away healthcare, forcing them to move here, there and everywhere and then killing them anyway etc to those who are not familiar with war seem unfathomable, if Israel just presents it's evidence of why all of this is necessary it'll all be over and done with and Israel can get on with it's killing spree fully supported by the US.

MercanDede · 11/01/2024 22:47

@saveallthewhales
I don’t think Israel would be stupid enough to make those counter arguments in quite that fashion. Justice (Emeritis) Aharon Barak is a well respected and esteemed former president of the Supreme Court of Israel. He is very pro-Israel biased but he’s extremely intelligent and spent his career handling international law and courts

I think this was your source?
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/how-to-dismantle-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-r2tkcb1m

On the Genocidal Intent:
”The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that its objective is to destroy Hamas. Hamas is not a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, and no Israeli leader with authority over the conduct of the military operation has indicated an intention to destroy the Palestinian people.”

That flies in the face of the pages of evidence that South Africa submitted of stated (and sung) intention from the top down to destroy the Palestinian people of Gaza.

On the hospitals:
Its oversimplified. Yes hospitals can lose their protections but not by having tunnels under them. Tunnels are not an active threat to a military. The law even states that having wounded enemy fighters in the hospital receiving treatment is not adequate reason to target a hospital. There are very specific, limited circumstances and a tunnel isn’t one of them. Especially since the video evidence of the tunnels (and it isn’t verified the tunnels filmed were under Al Shifa as the video is edited) shows tunnels with no evidence of recent use. Therefore, there was no active threat to the IDF from within or under the hospitals. In the case of Al Shifa, the tunnels were originally built by IDF when they occupied Gaza. That’s how they knew they existed. This has been fact checked as true:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/fact-check-did-israel-build-bunker-under-shifa-hospital/ar-AA1jZnXA

On the civilian deaths
“It has been reported that civilians accounted for 89 per cent of the casualties in conflicts in densely populated areas worldwide in 2021. The IDF has estimated that about a third of Palestinians killed in the current operation were terrorists.”

Yes it was reported. By the Guardian but was an average when you combine terrorist attacks plus military attacks. Of course, terrorists will kill more civilians that’s part of being a terrorist.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2021/may/25/explosive-weapons-used-in-cities-kill-civilians-91-of-time-finds-study
“Where the identity of the perpetrators was known, state actors were behind 128,460 of the deaths and injuries recorded – of which 67% were civilians – while terror groups and other non-state actors were behind 132,909, of whom 76% were civilians.”

the IDF estimate is taking the Gaza death toll, subtracting the statistic reported of 70% are women and children and saying, 100% of men are all Hamas terrorists. That is no way to count terrorists.

the Guardian article also reported the usual % for IDF
”Gaza was the ninth most affected territory, with 5,700 civilian casualties recorded among 764 incidents. Of the casualties, 90% were civilians, the second highest proportion of leading countries affected, followed by Lebanon on 91%.”

So, per this same report, IDF has a worse % civilian death toll than the average % civilian death toll from terrorist attacks.

On blocking humanitarian aid
They did block aid for several weeks of the war and not only that they deliberately destroyed water, sewage, power, and food sources and infrastructure within Gaza. Once aid started to go in, it was a trickle, a tiny fraction of the need and still is. The comment is wrong, Israel is prohibited by international law from blocking and stopping humanitarian aid sent by other countries. The paragraph seems to be confusing humanitarian aid with military aid.

How to dismantle South Africa’s ‘genocide’ case against Israel

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/how-to-dismantle-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-r2tkcb1m

hogmanayhoolie · 11/01/2024 22:48

@saveallthewhales

Thank you for your very reasonable post

Don't be put off posting - some threads are echo chambers and you'll find this one has its share of cheerleaders for South Africa i

It's interesting to look at the countries that are supportive of this posturing by SA. And the ones who aren't

SA are part of BRICS. That's all I need to know about motive

MercanDede · 11/01/2024 22:53

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 21:10

"You don't even name your source but what you have posted is clearly pro-Israeli propaganda. "

Oh OK. It is briefing notes fomr Legal advocacy group UK Lawyers for Israel.
They have created a series of briefing notes on how international law applies to Israel’s war against Hamas to equip non-experts with the tools to defend the Jewish state and counter the large amount of misinformation on social media.

This seems to be notes on defence rather than spinning propaganda?

While the source you got it from
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/how-to-dismantle-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-r2tkcb1m

does indeed state
“Legal advocacy group UK Lawyers for Israel has created a series of briefing notes on how international law applies to Israel’s war against Hamas to equip non-experts with the tools to defend the Jewish state and counter the large amount of misinformation on social media. We summarise them here.”

and at the end say “For the full briefing, visit https://uklficharity.com

If you go to the U.K. Lawyers for Israel website you will find the summary by the JC isn’t a very good one. Perhaps instead of a journalist writing it, they should have used an actual lawyer?
https://www.uklfi.com/home/briefing-notes-on-the-war-in-gaza

How to dismantle South Africa’s ‘genocide’ case against Israel

https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/how-to-dismantle-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-r2tkcb1m

Pinkpetunias88 · 11/01/2024 22:54

@CluelessPepperoni "if Israel just presents it's evidence of why all of this is necessary it'll all be over and done with and Israel can get on with it's killing spree fully supported by the US."

To suggest this is just arrant nonsense.

If Israel wanted to go on a 'killing spree' they could have flattened Gaza in 2 days or less.
Using emotive, ill-informed rhetoric does not help your argument.

CluelessPepperoni · 11/01/2024 23:00

Pinkpetunias88 · 11/01/2024 22:54

@CluelessPepperoni "if Israel just presents it's evidence of why all of this is necessary it'll all be over and done with and Israel can get on with it's killing spree fully supported by the US."

To suggest this is just arrant nonsense.

If Israel wanted to go on a 'killing spree' they could have flattened Gaza in 2 days or less.
Using emotive, ill-informed rhetoric does not help your argument.

I count an average of 250 people a day as a killing spree. I think we just have different levels of what we think counts as a killing spree? You: 2.2 million in 2 days. Me: More than 1% of the population in 3 months. To me that's a heck of a lot of dead people. Imagine 1% of your country killed in 3 months. How many family members, friends, neighbours, colleagues that would include. To me that would be an insane killing spree, I can't imagine it, so much loss and grief. I'm sorry you find that to be nonsense.

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 23:00

hogmanayhoolie · 11/01/2024 22:48

@saveallthewhales

Thank you for your very reasonable post

Don't be put off posting - some threads are echo chambers and you'll find this one has its share of cheerleaders for South Africa i

It's interesting to look at the countries that are supportive of this posturing by SA. And the ones who aren't

SA are part of BRICS. That's all I need to know about motive

Thank you @hogmanayhoolie

MercanDede · 11/01/2024 23:04

Pinkpetunias88 · 11/01/2024 22:54

@CluelessPepperoni "if Israel just presents it's evidence of why all of this is necessary it'll all be over and done with and Israel can get on with it's killing spree fully supported by the US."

To suggest this is just arrant nonsense.

If Israel wanted to go on a 'killing spree' they could have flattened Gaza in 2 days or less.
Using emotive, ill-informed rhetoric does not help your argument.

It’s not a genocide unless everyone’s killed in 2 days? Well none of the other genocides meet that criterium. It took 100 days for Rwanda. Six years for Germany….

I think “they could have flattened Gaza in 2 days” is a perfect example of
“Using emotive, ill-informed rhetoric” btw. Couldn’t have asked for better.

EasterIssland · 11/01/2024 23:04

Interesting how many brand new accounts there are suddenly in this thread 🤔

saveallthewhales · 11/01/2024 23:06

MercanDede · 11/01/2024 22:53

While the source you got it from
https://www.thejc.com/news/israel/how-to-dismantle-south-africas-genocide-case-against-israel-r2tkcb1m

does indeed state
“Legal advocacy group UK Lawyers for Israel has created a series of briefing notes on how international law applies to Israel’s war against Hamas to equip non-experts with the tools to defend the Jewish state and counter the large amount of misinformation on social media. We summarise them here.”

and at the end say “For the full briefing, visit https://uklficharity.com

If you go to the U.K. Lawyers for Israel website you will find the summary by the JC isn’t a very good one. Perhaps instead of a journalist writing it, they should have used an actual lawyer?
https://www.uklfi.com/home/briefing-notes-on-the-war-in-gaza

Thank you so much @MercanDede . That was really useful.

I just read this which gives more details about the defence against genocide:
Israel
There is no evidential basis for asserting that members of the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) have conducted operations with intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group in whole or in part, and the facts indicate the contrary.
The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that its objective is to destroy Hamas. Hamas is not a national, ethnic, racial or religious group. No Israeli leader with authority over the conduct of the military operation has indicated an intention to destroy the Palestinian people. Claims to the contrary are based on misinterpretations of statements taken out of context. On the contrary, an Israeli Minister without command authority was suspended after he suggested that dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza was “one of the possibilities”. Israeli politicians and media have discussed how to rebuild the Gaza Strip without Hamas after the war.
The IDF evidently has power to kill most of the population of the Gaza Strip but has not done so. Although serious and tragic, the Palestinian casualties so far, including terrorists and those killed by terrorists, amount to less than 1% of the population of the Gaza Strip. Considerably fewer Palestinians have been killed (by any munitions, including Palestinian fire) than the number of strikes by the Israeli air force – i.e. on average each attack by air has killed less than one Palestinian. Israel has repeatedly urged and helped Palestinians to move to safer areas and has also taken extraordinary care to provide warnings to evacuate particular targets.

EasterIssland · 11/01/2024 23:06

MercanDede · 11/01/2024 23:04

It’s not a genocide unless everyone’s killed in 2 days? Well none of the other genocides meet that criterium. It took 100 days for Rwanda. Six years for Germany….

I think “they could have flattened Gaza in 2 days” is a perfect example of
“Using emotive, ill-informed rhetoric” btw. Couldn’t have asked for better.

Imagine saying holocaust wasn’t a genocide because they weren’t killed in 2 days …🤔 many posters would rightly kick off if anyone said that. There is no time for a genocide in fact this happens with time not one day to another

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