South Africa has invoked the Genocide Convention against Israel over Gaza

[HeidiInTheBigCity]

The entire filing is 84 pages long and, frankly, took me several hours to read - it's well worth the effort, though, in that it is rather (painfully at times) clinical and devastating in equal measure: https://www.icj-cij.org/sites/default/files/case-related/192/192-20231228-app-01-00-en.pdf

Go, South Africa!

It might not male that much of a difference in the short term - but: to see the former victims of Apartheid take the lead on the world stage, and offer support (the way they - after multiple decades of campaigning and pressure ... it's not as though world leaders hated Apartheid South Africa "by default") is just ... a little spark of light within the darkness!

I can avoid them and I do. People don't tend to post with very graphic descriptions of what's happened in the same way.

I also find the atrocities against Palestinians are less personalised which makes it a bit easier. It's quite rare to see individuals names and faces.

Complain to the Jerusalem Post, then, I suppose, their wording, not mine - to be fair, they said "film" not "video" - if this is what makes the difference: my apologies!

It's just so hypocritical.
We post about the sexual assaults and violence on 7/10 and are told to prove it.
No evidence apparently:
Now it's too graphic and disrespectful?
And yet Israel was forced to publish the footage to the media (that the terrorists had filmed) because people doubted what Israel had said.
And the irony of fluttering your fan and saying I don't see footage and pictures for Gaza is laughable as it's constant. The threads on here are full of reports (unchecked) from social media. I can name the worst offenders.
And there were lots of personal stories in todays hearing from South Africa.
Unbelievable.

One of South Africa’s lawyers speech today

@stomachameleon The threads on here are full of reports (unchecked) from social media. I can name the worst offenders.
And there were lots of personal stories in todays hearing from South Africa.
Unbelievable.

Some posts are hard to check because they haven't reached the mainstream media. Some won't ever.
And are you implying that the personal stories didn't happen?

Where is the hypocrisy? South Africa did not show graphic footage or graphic photos from Gaza. Israel wanted to show the 7/10 footage, but the court denied them.

That is both parties being held to the same standard which is not hypocritical.

I thought Israel published the 7/10 footage after criticisms began of their heavy handed bombing of Gaza to justify their extreme response? I cannot recall anyone denying that 7/10 happened or that it was a horrific massacre.

I do recall people doubting ‘40 beheaded babies’ and other wild rumours which the footage and forensic analysis did resolve because there were no babies beheaded on 7/10. Only one infant died and that was when he was hit when his mother was shot.

Dear all,

I am new to mumsnet and have deicded tot ake the plunge so feel a bit nervous.

Anyway - I came across some a source posing some of the questions being posed at this court and how international law applies to Israel’s war against Hamas.

They are here and the answers do seem to be kind of convincing but then I am no expert.

Here they are:

Claim: Israel is committing genocide

There is no evidential basis for this claim. Genocide is defined in Article II of the Genocide Convention of 1948 as committing various acts with intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part. The Israeli government has repeatedly stated that its objective is to destroy Hamas. Hamas is not a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, and no Israeli leader with authority over the conduct of the military operation has indicated an intention to destroy the Palestinian people.
The IDF has power to kill most of the population of the Gaza Strip but has not done so. Although tragic, the Palestinian casualties so far, including terrorists and those killed by terrorists, amount to less than 1 per cent of the population of Gaza. Israel has repeatedly urged and helped Palestinians to move to safer areas.

Claim: Israel illegally targets hospitals

Hospitals and other medical units must be protected in all circumstances. However, they lose their protection if they are being used to commit acts harmful to the enemy, according to articles in the Geneva Convention, Rule 28 of the ICRC Rules of Customary International Humanitarian Law, and article 27 of the 1899 and 1907 Hague Regulations. IDF footage has revealed a Hamas-built tunnel network under Al Shifa hospital and other medical sites.

Claim: Israel’s operation is disproportionate

No. Suffering fewer casualties is not what proportionality means. It is recognised that a substantial number of civilian casualties are likely to be inevitable where enemy forces are embedded in a civilian population. It has been reported that civilians accounted for 89 per cent of the casualties in conflicts in densely populated areas worldwide in 2021. The IDF has estimated that about a third of Palestinians killed in the current operation were terrorists. An attack is disproportionate if it may be expected to cause incidental civilian casualties and/or damage to civilian objects which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

Claim: Israel is illegally preventing aid getting into Gaza

Wrong. Israel is not only allowing at least 100 humanitarian aid trucks and about 70,000 litres of fuel a day into Gaza, a country engaged in armed conflict has no obligation to supply anything to a territory under its enemy’s control. On the contrary, there is an obligation on all states not to provide any form of support directly or indirectly to terrorists.

I look forward to Israel submitting the above defences tomorrow in court.

By the way South Africa doesn't have to prove genocide right now, they only have to show the potential for genocide. The Act would be quite useless if you had to wait until a genocide had been completed to invoke it.

I am so glad south Africa has made this stand. I will be watching with interest tomorrow and what actual evidence the Israeli government presents. Many of their claims lost October 7 have been graphic yet can not be backed up by any real corroborated evidence.

@anotherlevel no I am saying it's horribly misguided especially in light of wanting every life to be treated as equal to denigrate and belittle either side for wanting to share their stories.

I do feel Israel is rather 'damned if you do'. They were castigated for not posting stuff straight away, then people demanded footage and that wasn't right, feminists exclaim #metoo and yet demand to see women who have been gang raped. Ghouls on here want details. Dead babies aren't dead enough.

It's disgusting. For either side in this conflict to need to do that. Dehumanising needs to stop.

thanks to all those posting updates today, couldn’t watch live as was at work but kept checking in here. As much as it pains me and I do believe Israel is overwhelmingly guilty of genocide, I am not expecting South Africa to win this case even with the lower bar required for plausibility re provisional measures. I think it will be determined on political lines not legal merit and if you just look at the nationalities/backgrounds of the ICJ judges I don’t believe South Africa will get the 8 votes it needs to win.

Norman Finkelstein sets out how he believes each judge will decide. He’s predicting at least USA, Germany, India, Australia, Uganda, Russia, Japan and China will not be supportive. Possibly France too.

I agree tomorrow will be a circus. shame on Malcolm Shaw for taking the case. He had a decent reputation and his name will now forever be tarnished by this.

@Desertrose2023 why will it be a circus?
Why can South Africa give its side and argument but you deny Israel before it gets on the stand.
Your bias is clear.

Love Queen Rania.
fantastic name choice @QueenRania

Thanks. She is no doubt a beautiful elegant lady inside and out

Yep. Palestinian too, no doubt why she attracts hate from some.

You don't even name your source but what you have posted is clearly pro-Israeli propaganda. As a previous poster said it'll probably be along the lines of Israel's defence but that doesn't make it correct or even convincing.

There’s been a lot of discussion about this on the threads here. Perhaps go through some of the threads already on this board if you want our layman opinions.
However- we are now at the stage-that we can get informed opinions. I’ve posted a link from a SA lawyer, and the whole evidence provided today is also available on line. Tomorrow will be the turn of Israel.

I can't see how evidence of the events of 7th October is relevant to be honest. Even if every claim Israel has made was fully and irrefutably evidenced it does not give them the right to commit genocide. The rules of war apply even in the aftermath of a brutal terrorist attack.

It also opens the door to further scrutiny about how many of the deaths on October 7th were caused by a panicked IDF.

They need to offer evidence that their military operation is strategically designed to eliminate Hamas whilst minimising civilian casualties. Again, even if you accept that the extensive bombing is necessary to achieve this aim it's impossible to defend the deprivation of food, water, fuel and healthcare.

The fact that the Israeli government and the IDF have been vocal about their real aims and the IDF have proudly documented their indiscriminate killing of civilians will make the Israeli defence quite difficult.

@saveallthewhales

There are so many holes in this, and each issue has been framed in a misleading way. As others have said plenty of discussion relating to each issue already on the boards.

And an antisemite.

Don’t forget the destruction of key infrastructure to the point that Gaza has become ‘uninhabitable’ and the internal displacement of 85% of the population.

The intent of the Israeli government was certainly spoken about in the content I have listened to - and request to consider an interim order to stop the fighting. It would be amazing if the court could facilitate a stop to the current death of innocent Gazan civilians - whilst it looks at more detailed analysis of whether war crimes took place.

Don’t forget the destruction of key infrastructure to the point that Gaza has become ‘uninhabitable’ and the internal displacement of 85% of the population.

The IDF have helpfully filmed themselves having fun inside public buildings before blowing them up. I'm guessing you don't hang around a target laughing and joking if you think the enemy is nearby so it would seem obvious that they know Hamas is not hiding inside the buildings but they destroy them anyway.

The bombing campaign has absolutely been designed to make Gaza uninhabitable. Plenty of Israeli politicians are on record saying as much. I wonder what their defence for that will be?

@FOJN they'll probably put the blame on using the wrong missile again. 🙄