WHY!!!

[Mrsmulhern]

Literally, just WHY!! Like I just don’t get war/conflict and when I’ve had conversations with people their answer is well, it’s because of something that happened years ago, or religion.

I mean why as human beings can we not just put an end to everything!! And if your answer is well we don’t want ‘terrorists’.. Literally 99 percent of humans do not want that either.
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I genuinely feel like I’m going insane, why is nobody questioning any war, anywhere?! WHAT does anyone have to be afraid of? People, like you and me are dying everywhere, all over the world and it’s ok with everyone.

I am genuinely curious as to reasons but I can’t see any. We’re on this planet for such a short time and people just blindly follow their ‘leader’.

Why can’t we just say no and stop it?!

I am afraid that suggesting Israel’s war on Gaza is driven by a desire for resources rather than properly acknowledging the invidious position they find themselves in post 7 October does have some unsavoury anti semitic implications. I also love that if you dared to tell a black person what was racist or not you’d be absolutely crucified for it, but people feel very ok telling you how what they’re saying is not anti semitic.

OP said: ‘The Jews living in Israel are also taught that the people in Gaza are inherently bad.’

This is a really problematic position to hold and state as fact. If you can’t see why this hints at a clear prejudice then that says a lot.

@Muthaofcats I was replying to a post that said that the children of Gaza are brought up in a similar way? It wasn’t just statement that the Jews in Israel are brought up to hate. I will find it after this post.

Looks like the posts from that poster @Ibizafun have been deleted so maybe it took a turn but I gave an alternative viewpoint so I don’t think it’s fair to say what I said was problematic.

I don't get it. I seriously get arguing over politics / religion. But killing people. Bombing homes. I'm like wtf we aren't savages

@deeprealisation I feel the same, I don’t even understand the religion or politics part. Why does killing people work?!

@Mrsmulhern have you namechanged? Am confused...

October 7th was a war crime against the civilians of an occupying state, in the context of a larger, long drawn out war between Israeli occupation forces and Hamas as well as its predecessors such as PLO. It is a mistake to characterise the entire conflict between Israel and Hamas by one war crime committed by either side. I make the comparison on a whole picture basis.

There isn’t really a huge difference between the two when looking at the whole picture instead of on one war crime done by one combatant side. It’s unreasonable to say analogies in wars have to be based on one type of attack by one side.

Russia has a much more recent historical claim on Ukraine than does Israel on the Palestinian Territories. Kyiv, the capital of Ukraine, was quite literally the birthplace of the Russian nation in early medieval times and the entire territory has historically been part of Russia for over 1,000yrs, up until Ukraine attained independence a century ago.

Similarly, the Holy Land, as in the ancient kingdoms of Israel and Judea which were conquered and died out over 2,000 years ago, included Israel, the Palestinian Territories, Lebanon and parts of Jordan. Israel wants all of it back on the basis of historical past ownership, not from a century ago, but over 2,000yrs ago.

The fact that Ukraine hasn’t used terrorism to fight against Russia doesn’t invalidate the comparison between the conflicts in terms of the objective being the acquisition of land by right of historical ownership.

I’m not suggesting the war on Gaza is driven by geopolitical aims, I am stating that it is the case with almost all wars. It doesn’t have antiSemitic implications for the prior poster to state their opinion that this war is no exception to an almost universal fact of wars. Instead, you are taking a very peculiar stance by thinking that Israel is somehow unique, would never fight a war driven by geopolitical aims and to think otherwise is antisemitic.

I have seen many threads on MN discussing whether something is racist or not and there being disagreement with no one being crucified for having an opinion, I don’t see how this is an exception to that.

For the rest of your post, that is not at all what we were discussing. However, there is evidence that some Jews are being taught that the people in Gaza are bad.
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/27/fact-check-did-israeli-children-really-sing-about-annihilating-everyone-in-gaza

@MercanDede Israel has little interest in the land of Gaza itself. They have left Gaza alone since 2005.
Prior to October 7th it perceived its border with Gaza as impenetrable, now that this has been proven wrong, Israel has no choice but to remove the threat. This threat is Hamas who have stated that they would repeat October 7th until Israel is gone. "From the River to the sea.."
This war is driven solely by Israel's need for security, to remove the threat that is Hamas and destroy its infrastructure. Israel is determine to secure it's borders. Denying Israel of this is antisemitic.

Israel has not “left Gaza alone since 2005”. There has been a strict blockade in place that has caused their economy to regress, as well as numerous military airstrikes and ground incursions that caused £100s of billions in damage to infrastructure. All prior to Oct 7th. The UN and ICC recognise that Gaza has been occupied by Israel since 1967. The “border” between Gaza and Israel is an internal border, it is not an international border. It is also a massive concrete wall manned with machine gun nests and patrolled by soldiers to keep Gazans in.

The Likud charter and statements by numerous Israeli government ministers indicates there is a lot of interest in clearing Gaza of Palestinians and then annexing it. This interest predates Oct 7th. The Israeli operations have been widely recognised by military analysts even U.S. analysts to be the sort a government would employ to effectively achieve these aims.

As with most wars, there are layers of reasons for it. I don’t deny that Hamas is a security threat to Israel, however Israel’s current operations in Gaza have been widely acknowledged by numerous military analysts to be pointless and counterproductive in that not only will it not eliminate Hamas, it is more likely to strengthen Hamas.

So per multiple military analysts, the actions of Israel match best one part of their stated aims- and it’s not the aim to eliminate Hamas. Why else do you think the US has been criticising Israel’s military tactics on Gaza while supporting the aim to eliminate Hamas? They know from fighting ISIS that there is a mismatch.

@MercanDede The blockade and security fences were to prevent a massacre the likes of October 7th. Based on the amount of humanitarian aid and resources provided to Gaza over the years, by Israel and the international community, Gaza could have built up its own economy. Instead, they've chosen to use this funding and aid to build terror infrastructure. The blame for their poor economy lies with Hamas, its government.
I agree fully that Hamas ideology cannot be conquered through military tactics alone. A complete remodeling of the Gazans education and ideology needs to happen before Israel and Palestine will be able to live peacefully side by side. I believe this is Israel's ultimate aim.

They aren’t fences, it’s a massive concrete wall. The blockade has strangled the Gazan economy, no amount of aid can change that, especially since most aid went to rebuilding everything that IDF repeatedly destroyed over the years.

Read the UN analyses please.

None of the aid went to any terror infrastructure either directly or indirectly as repeated audits have shown. Hamas funded their terrorism through illegal financing means.

Read the EU and US audits done on the humanitarian aid funds please.

There is a chicken and egg conundrum. Israel put in the blockade to protect against future terror attacks, which in turn then strangled the Gazan economy leading to a regression in quality of life for the younger generations, which in turn bred resentment and hate towards the Israeli occupation which assisted the recruitment of terrorist fighters which then results in terror attacks to which Israel responds by clamping down and destroying more of Gaza, which then breeds yet more resentment and drives more fresh recruits into the arms of Hamas.

It is a cycle with no good end for both Israel and Gaza. It is why most of the world and experts familiar with de-escalating these kinds of conflicts have outlined the above and are advising a ceasefire and building peace through equality for Palestinians.

So what is Israel's role in all this as Occupying Force? Eternal victim? Ridiculous.

Ignoring Israel's dreadful treatment of Palestinians in Gaza and the WB for decades is not helpful in any debate on the subject.

A complete remodeling of the Gazans education and ideology

As admirable as that aim is, it’s not going to cause children to forget what they have lived through. They will not forget the trauma and terror of fleeing here and there while bombs dropped around them and nowhere is safe. They will not forget family members blown to bits or crushed by rubble. They will not forget the deliberate denial of food, water, power, communications and medicine causing even more friends and family to die.

@MercanDede I've been to the Gazan/Israeli border myself. I have to correct you, at some sections there is a concrete wall, some there is metal security fence.

I agree fully with this paragraph:
"It is a cycle with no good end for both Israel and Gaza. It is why most of the world and experts familiar with de-escalating these kinds of conflicts have outlined the above and are advising a ceasefire and building peace through equality for Palestinians."

However you are wrong that this will bring peace. October 6th there was a ceasefire. (Yes, Israel would intermittently bomb Gaza to respond to the source of rocket fire from Hamas.) Hamas broke that ceasefire on October 7th and Israel, as any country would, has no intentions to stop the war until Hamas's infrastructure is truly eradicated.

In my opinion the only thing that will bring peace is when Palestinians are not indoctrinated to hate and taught that to kill Israeli's is to be a martyr, and there is an agreed upon 2 state solution. But first this hatred has to go.

I've lived in Israel myself. I watched an Arab 15/16 year old teenaged boy stab an Israeli women with a baby, on a bus in Jerusalem.
A few months ago, cousin of mine was shot in the head by a Palestinian terrorist whilst waiting at a bus stop in Jerusalem. She was in her early 20's, newly married, pregnant with her first child.
I've ran to bomb shelters multiple times with only a few seconds until the rocket hits.
I have trauma. Yet I don't bring up my kids to hate others. I most definitely don't bring up my kids that killing others is commended.
Trauma is no excuse for hatred.

@untitledmum I am sorry you had to witness that. I think it's easy for people to pontificate about things when they have no shared real experience.

Mumsnet these are the first posts I've ever had deleted and even after reading the guidelines I'm not sure why? Can you tell me?

I agree with the need to stop indoctrinating children into hate in their schools and home life, once this horror ends.
Not much we can do to relief what they have already lived, but to offer a proper chance to a peaceful future, for both sides.
By the way, having grown up in acountry that had to move forward very quickly from a dictatorship (and the vestiges of a civil war), we, the children, were not told anything about it at school, and almost nothing at home (bar stories about how they had to find and hide food) for years on. Only between teenage and adults years I really learnt what had happened. And I think it really worked to raise generations without that hate.

They weren’t saying trauma is why adults teach children hate, but trauma as a child is why they grow up to hate as adults.

@Hellenika that's the bit you focused on.

So sorry about your cousin @untitledmum. I think you're right that peace can only come from the Palestinians.

@MushMonster - what do you think encouraged your parents to let you kids grow up without hearing partisan stories? That does seem like the key to peace - and sadly seems completely counter to current Palestinian culture, which defines itself in opposition to Israel. Understand you not being keen to say which country, but can you explain what the causes of the war were and how it was resolved, as you understand it?

Having seen a mentioned in another thread, I've been trying to think about what made the difference between Germany after WW1 (when they felt injured national pride, and wanted revenge and historic territory back) and after WW2 (when they rebuilt in peace and became a powerful founding member of a unified Europe).

For Germany, it probably needed all of:
1.The complete destruction of the previous leadership and military capability

1. Acceptance that there was no going back to how things had been before WW1 (which probably came from how complete the WW2 defeat was, how much everything had changed, and accepting the autonomy of countries in their historic territory)
2. A national sense of culpability instead of victimhood
3. No remaining threat to the Allies.
4. Opportunity and money to rebuild - given by the US in order to build peace. This was only possible due to there being no remaining threat from Germany.
5. Some scaffolding from outside powers in governing the country in the immediate aftermath (although this did lead to its own problems..)
6. Inspirational leadership from within, a few years later
7. Huge economic growth: which partly came from peace, but was also just due to technical innovation and social change in the 20th century

For the Palestinisns, if they could genuinely reach (4), then I think all the rest could then follow: the Arab countries are finally stepping up to offer (6) and there has always been huge amounts of aid available for (5).

But I don't see how they reach (4) without (2) and at least a bit of (3).

And until Israel have security and acceptance from the Palestinians, I can't see either a 1-state or 2-state solution being possible. And the same will just continue, with everyone suffering.

Interesting. Do you have an analysis on what Israel needs to do? Obviously any solution needs give and take on both sides but the occupying power would have to take the lead.

@statsfun such an informative post with lots to think about. Thank you.

I've described what I think was necessary for peace after WW2, @Toothyfruity When Germany had attacked its neighbours, and then been militarily defeated.

So instead of answering what Israel should do (which I don't know), let's consider what the Allies did after WW2.

I believe the Allies occupied Germany for 10 years, de-militarising it and removing remaining Nazi influence. The Allies prevented the reconstruction of German heavy industry for at least 5 years, and the US only gave funding and allowed Germany to rebuild when they belatedly realised that this would benefit Europe as a whole. Life was really appalling for Germans in the post-war years, with high mortality. Many Germans were also expelled from other European countries in horrific conditions.

5 years after the war (during which time Germany didn't attack anyone), they were permitted to create a sovereign state. They got more access to financial aid, and were permitted to rebuild industry. Another 5 years, and they started rejoining Europe diplomatically. By 1960 (just 15 years after the war), West Germany's economy was really successful, and in the current day (80 years after the war) Germany are economic and political leaders, strong allies in Europe. Certainly the US loans were necessary, but Germany built its own success within a peaceful Europe.

Now I'd hope that with what everyone learned after WW2 (and the destruction being far more limited) rebuilding Gaza's infrastructure and economy could take a much easier, less painful path than rebuilding Germany. But rebuilding trust would be just as hard.

I'm also pretty sure that if Germany had continued to attack its neighbours, Europe would still not be at peace.