WHY!!!

[Mrsmulhern]

Literally, just WHY!! Like I just don’t get war/conflict and when I’ve had conversations with people their answer is well, it’s because of something that happened years ago, or religion.

I mean why as human beings can we not just put an end to everything!! And if your answer is well we don’t want ‘terrorists’.. Literally 99 percent of humans do not want that either.
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I genuinely feel like I’m going insane, why is nobody questioning any war, anywhere?! WHAT does anyone have to be afraid of? People, like you and me are dying everywhere, all over the world and it’s ok with everyone.

I am genuinely curious as to reasons but I can’t see any. We’re on this planet for such a short time and people just blindly follow their ‘leader’.

Why can’t we just say no and stop it?!

@Hellenika in Gaza it has and that's what I was talking about.

And you’ve used all but one of those posts to question why I’d post a report from the Times of Israel. Is there something bad or wrong about the Times of Israel? Something you don’t like?

I was talking about Gaza too. IDF have killed many more Christians in the past weeks in Gaza than Hamas has over the past 17 years, including on 7/10.

Jesus Christ you're tenacious. I just wondered why it was so important o you that people get the precise manner in which children were murdered correct, that's all. Calm the fuck down.

They have ethnically cleansed the area of Christian's. As Hamas will of any area that it is allowed to govern. As it would in other countries if this was allowed to continue. Luckily Israel allows them to be there and none of your repeat posts will convince me otherwise.

You feel comfortable attacking Israel. Undermining who did and didn't die as If it's a game. I wonder why beheading Thai nationals is a war against Israel? Why attacking people of all nationalities and religions is a war against Israel? Raping women? Interesting argument.

@Girahim exactly.

I don't know why it matters either but it seems to. Many posters here including some posters that are posting on this thread have stated that what Hamas did was the worst thing imaginable. They've posted about the methods hamas used to kill people repeatedly and in great detail. Yet it's different apparently when Israel kill 1 out of every 105 people that live in Gaza. That isn't slaughter, that isn't barbaric, that isn't despicable. Apparently bombing people to death or executing people or starving them to death is entirely different to what Hamas did. They are all dead at the end of the day as you say, it makes no difference how they were killed Hamas killed 1139 people on 7/10 and Israel have killed over 20500 people. They both have blood on their hands and I hope no member of Hamas or no member of the IDF and Israeli government ever have a peaceful nights sleep again. May the faces of those they have slaughtered haunt them forever.

Coming back to the original question of why war happens, and why people don't just reject it: OP, have you come across the prisoner's dilemma? It shows a particular type of situation where the incentive for the individual leads to action which is worse for the group as a whole.

The example is where 2 members of a criminal gang are arrested. The police don't have enough evidence to convict the pair on the principal charge, but can sentence both on a lesser charge which means both prisoners get a year in jail.

The police offer each prisoner a bargain:

• If one prisoner testifies against his partner, he will go free while the partner will get three years in jail on the main charge.

-but if both prisoners testify against each other, both will be sentenced to two years in jail. -if neither testify, they'll both get one year in jail on the lesser charge

You can see that the best situation all round is for both to stay silent, and get a year each. But if a prisoner only cares about their own self interest, they are always better off testifying: if the other prisoner also testifies against them, they get 2 years in prison instead of 3,; if the other prisoner stays silent, then they get let off completely instead of serving 1 year.

But that same reasoning holds for both of them, so the consequence is that both prisoners will testify against each other - and so each will serve 2 years even though they could have both served only 1 year if both had stayed silent.

Armed conflict is the same type of problem as the prisoner's dilemma. Peace is much better for everyone. But if you can't trust the other side not to use weapons, then you're always better off using force yourself. If they weren't going to use force, then you gain an advantage. And if they were going to use force, then you are able to defend yourself instead of being slaughtered. So both sides fight, and both sides are worse off than if neither had done.

Breaking that conflict of interest was the driver behind the EEC after WW2, which eventually became the EU. By building trade links, each country's self-interest became more aligned with the whole group continuing to function. So instead of choosing the best thing for ourselves with no care for the other countries, we had an incentive to take a risk and hold on, gradually building up trust with each other that we'll all act in the interests of the whole group. Which - if everyone continues to act in good faith - ends up benefiting us all individually. And in Europe that worked.

There are other complicating factors in Israel/Gaza.

But hopefully this is a useful perspective into 'why'

Given that Israel has conscription, that's a large number of Israelis you're wishing extreme ill on. Arabs are excempt though so it's mostly the Jewish ones you want to suffer for the rest of their lives.

Hi everyone,

Sorry for posting and dipping. Christmas and all that. I’ve not fully read through all the thread and Thankyou to the people that have read through and listened and either tried to show me reasoning/debate or without calling me stupid or a child etc.

There was one poster that I forget now who questioned whether or not I think I’m the first person who thought I was against war and referenced the protests against that have always happened.

And that is not the case, I’m actually referencing in my OP that the majority of people are against war, so why since fighting began has war continued? Why are weapons still being made?

I also want to add, that we all know how awful the ethnic cleaning was of the Jews and it’s abhorrent to even think about, but unless you’re taught the basics at school, without looking any further, it is taught that ‘Germany’ did that as the Nazi party won the majority vote etc etc. But protests against the killing of Jews happened all over, but they were not powerful enough, or killed.

I’m just struggling with the realisation (to me) that the ethnic cleansing we all know is awful hasn’t ever stopped. It’s just been kept under wraps and it’s all because of what, religion?! Differences in skin colour? I don’t know what it is, but the Middle East.. countries like Iraq, Syria etc are constantly killing EACHOTHER. People largely of the same race and faith, supplied with arms from the richer mostly white, Christian countries and it’s just so far out of our control.

To the point that in Britain there’s constant critisim in the news about people risking their lives to escape war, that our own prime minister and governments slogan is to stop the boats. All over Europe the people that we are voting in right now all have some sort of fear mongering about these people even fleeing from the bombs that are killing whole bloodlines of people. But I do realise that the whichever way your politics swing that in our country it’s a democracy. Also protests happen and they happen all the time, but we do also believe that we can change it by the next election etc.

BUT the amount of money and the wars going on, everywhere, will never ever ever stop. It’s unfolding infront of our eyes I think that Israel didn’t expect the amount of social media coverage when Hamas attacked them, because an act of terrorism is awful and hearing about what happened on Oct 7th was shocking. And for many people, me included, would have had it on the news known how awful it is and then it’d have just faded out and it would just be more ‘conflict’ that when asked about it’d be known about but because of a retaliation to a terrorist attack.

im going to read through the thread now and take on board all answers and links, so thanks for replying but I can’t see any other reason other than ethnic cleansing atm (from all European countries)

@statsfun Thankyou very much for your insight and links. I find that very interesting.

But what if the gang members were bribed by the policemen? If they arrested both members of the gang for being criminals but told them both separately that they will give them loads of money each week and all they have to do is give up one gang member each week for the money. If each gang member said no they would be arrested, if one told on his friend, one friend would be arrested, one would walk free. But to keep getting authority protection he would have to get one in trouble each week, they’d figure out there was someone in the gang doing it and then they all eventually turn on eachother. They fight amongst themselves whilst the bigger people are laughing.

Sorry OP but you’re wrong that Jewish people are brought up taught to hate people in Gaza. That’s not what Jewish people are like AT ALL. How many Jewish people or Israelis do you know and have spoken to about the Middle East and their thoughts on what is happening?

You also suggest the war is about power and money. I’m sure you didn’t intend it but it’s hard not to see your comments as anti semetic / prejudiced in the context of your reference to Israel, given the tropes about Jews loving money etc.

Your post is actually helpful in the sense that I think you aren’t alone - given the thousands chanting ‘ceasefire now’ but without being able to propose a solution to what Israel does about Hamas explicitly promising they will keep murdering Jewish people until Israel is gone. It helps me to understand why so many people are chanting and calling for something that would mean more murder and rape of Jews. It is then hard to not see the ceasefire now marches as implicitly endorsing October 7th, but your post helps remind me that many people clearly just cant join the dots and are responding more simply from their own discomfort at seeing the devastating scenes in Gaza rather than being able to propose any meaningful solution.

It’s easy to be virtuous and talk of peace from the comfort and privilege of safety.

I am a peaceful person and can’t ever imagine not being, but if it were my children raped and kidnapped, or my grandmother rounded up and shot, would I support force to protect the rest of my family? I have no doubt I would.

Now the question of how much force is proportionate to achieve that aim, and whether Israel meets that threshold, I don’t know…. And also the question about intentions, is it really about defending themselves or are they only interested in power / money?

but What do they gain from attacking Gaza? They’d already given over Gaza, with all their infrastructure; and were not occupying it. They didn’t want it? They were living in peace on October 6th remember…

And let’s not forget Hamas filmed themselves and broadcast what they did and say they intend to keep doing it, so no on can deny the threat to Israel is real and ongoing.

Hamas have never cared about the people who elected them. They’ve done nothing to implement proper infrastructure to ensure the well being of ‘their people’. They dug up pipes that were running water to Gaza and used them as missiles. They deliberately use children as human shields because they do not value life in the same way you do. They believe they are martyrs for their cause so do not struggle with their kids dying in the same way Israel does, or you would. In that context, what do you do when they make their stated aim to eradicate you? And rape and torture your people first ?

I suggest it’s only your privilege that allows you to fail to understand war.

I think your post was deleted because, as you say, facts do matter, and the article Hellenika shared states "An unknown number of bodies — in mid-November the number was around 100 — are still awaiting identification at the Shura pathological center near Tel Aviv, with difficulties in the process arising because of the state of the remains."

Stating with confidence that only one baby died is rather hasty, especially given that the smaller the body, the less material is likely to remain for analysis. I doubt the actual cause of death can ever be determined for most of these charred scraps.

Except that Israel has the capacity to bomb the fuck out of Gaza anywhere it chooses, yet after 3 months their sustained attacks have reduced the population by 1%. (I won't say "just" 1%, as it's clearly a lot of people!) This despite the fact that Gaza doesn't have an Iron Dome protecting the population, as Israel does, and despite the difficulties inherent in attacking an enemy that hides underground and uses human shields.

Hamas/Gazans have no such military capacity, yet just by nipping in for a few hours, with brief exposure to limited areas, they managed to achieve exponentially more.

Yet Israel is described as the aggressor? As responding indiscriminately and not proportionally? Apparently they are carpet bombing, with a view to wiping out Gazan civilians? This just doens't make any sense.

Not only did they not start this awful war, but if you insist on seeing it as "revenge" and want to argue about proportionality, then in response to the kibbutz attacks Israel could easily have retaliated by killing 80% of Gazans (1.6 million people) within a day. Why do you think they didn't?

@Mrsmulhern I think you're suggesting that in israel/Gaza there are outside interests (the US, the arms companies?) who want the conflict to continue, and are manipulating both sides. Other pp have also suggested this, and a lot of people certainly try to blame "oil interests" and "powerful players" without being really clear about exactly what the incentive is for anyone.

I tend to think the simplest explanation is most likely to be true, and the beauty of prisoner's dilemma is that it helps us to understand a whole class of problems where at first sight people seem to act against their own long-term interest, but they are actually behaving rationally in the absence of trust. And that you don't actually need malicious outside actors or conspiracies to get this behaviour. Everyone is just acting according to their rational judgement of what's best for them in the circumstances they are in.

There really are loads of real-life problems that fall into this class: from traffic gridlock in cities (it benefits you to be a bit cheeky at the lights to get through on amber, but you're making other cars wait just a little for you to get through... and if everyone does it there is gridlock) to climate change (no country contributes enough emissions to make a difference by themselves, and the extra tax money from allowing factories to run help them deal with the impact of climate change on themselves). It's obvious that it would be better if everyone behaved pro-socially, but everyone needs to, otherwise those who do behave well suffer disproportionately. And it's really hard to build that trust.

Although our natural inclination is to distrust politicians, all their summits and talks are an attempt to build an environment where people can rationally do the right long-term thing. (At least where it aligns with our national interest! But as prisoner dilemma shows us - often the common good actually does align with our interest. You do need to hold back the instinctive cynicism, but it's true)

It's especially hard in situations like Israel/Gaza when the consequence of trusting and then having that trust broken is extreme and irreversible. Ie armed attacks and 1000s of people you care about dead. Please don't jump from this statement to "but X did this, but Y did that". I'm not commenting here on what has been done by who. Just pointing out that for each individual making decisions, they're thinking about what their options are right now. And part of that thinking is weighing up the consequence if they trust and that trust fails. (which it has, time and time again - so you'd be a bit crazy not to give that quite a lot of weight)

Anyway OP, your thread kicked off a bit overnight. Happy Xmas. I think the hardest thing in life is coming to terms with the presence of suffering in the world. Maybe our best bet is to focus on being grateful for its absence from our own life, for as long as we are lucky enough to be healthy and safe.

I do like the prisoner's dilemma analogy. Trust indeed.
But... the root of the problem is deeper, isn't it? Why does the gang exist in the first place? Gangs are commonly created by individuals who make money on ilegal terms, gaining power by threatening communities into submission, forcing young people to do their dirty business and forcing police and even higher institutions into silence by either bribes or violence and serious threads.
It is in the interest of the gangs bosses to keep hate and distrust alive and burning. Otherwise, people would have the space to think and see the problem for what it is. And the distruss and hate would now turn to the big bosses, instead of keeping the little guys (who have absolutely zero value to the big guys) fighting each other (the two prisoners and the police).

@Hellenika the 7th October was not a massacre. It was not a singular event, it is part of Hamas’s genocidal campaign against Jewish people. That they quite openly say will be repeated because of their published genocidal intent towards one group. Hamas are very open about the fact they want to wage a genocide against Jewish people. Let’s not minimise the suffering of Israelis or Palestinians.

If that were true then surely who ever is so concerned with facts would have reported the post that said 'babies throats were slit' and not mine which states the facts as we know it now? My post was accurate to what we know. There are 7 Israelis left unaccounted for and it is not known if they were taken hostage or killed and a similar number of 'foreigners'. No mention of any babies being unaccounted for and you would imagine after almost 3 months they would know who is unaccounted for. The rest are believed to be 'Hamas fighters'.

True, I don't think we can tell if throats were slit, unless I've missed something. The forensics team have been clear from the start that it's hard to tell why so many bodies were missing heads, as heads can come off for a number of reasons and when a body is badly burned you can't see the cut line to work out what happened. I suppose Jihadi terrorists are known for enjoying a bit of decapitation, so people might be putting 2 and 2 together to make 5.

On the other hand, I don't think it's reasonable to state conclusively at this stage that just one baby was killed.

@MushMonster - of course there are many different people involved, who have many different motivations. Even one single person is weighing up their action based on a number of different goals - not only security vs trust.

A politician is worried about his career, his legacy, whether his friends respect him.... in addition to having personal values and an opinion on what will work best for the country (which might be different from your opinion).

The Hamas leaders have all the same drivers...and additionally with fewer legal protections than in an established governments, by how much money they and their family can skim off (Arafat left hundreds of millions of dollars to his wife and daughter when he died).

Still not a conspiracy!

This is an awful thing to converse about so I'm just going to say that they know the baby that died was shot. Her mother was there and was holding her when it happened. There aren't 'so many bodies' of babies missing heads. There is one body of one baby and she was shot. There are 7 Israelis missing with no knowledge of what happened, there is no indication that any of those 7 are babies. I'm done talking about this now because it's all horrific and speculation rather than sticking to what we actually know is grim.

Very interesting thread. I think the prisoners dilemma was a good way to illustrate why countries all have a ministry of defence and all have a budget for weapons and military personnel even in times of peace. There is no trust. Unfortunately, the current wars in Ukraine and Gaza are highlighting double standards in the West which is going to have repercussions for world peace and perhaps even lead to the dismantling of the already toothless UN.

I think the parallels between Ukraine and Gaza, where in both there is an aggressive occupying more powerful military force that is violating international law highlight hypocrisy. Hypocrisy because while Russia is condemned and Ukraine aided, Israel is cheered on and aided.

Most wars are about geopolitical aims which are based on money/resources and power/strategic advantage. This observation is universal, so is not an “antisemitic trope” as one pp alleged because it applies to all wars, not just wars involving a Jewish majority state.

I do wish we could have progressed towards world peace, but it appears that since the 1990s, we have been sliding backwards very quickly. It is disheartening to know what a mess we are leaving for future generations.

@BigandBeefy why not ask Mumsnet if you want to know why it was deleted. They are normally quite forthcoming if they think you have stepped out of line?

@MercanDede

Young people at a music festival, the elderly and children are not an occupying military. And Hamas is not fighting to win Palestinian self determination on an equal basis to Israeli Jews (ie two states with equal rights) its aim is for a theocratic state in all of pre 1948 Palestine purged of Jews.

An analogy would arise if a far right Ukrainian militia was conducting incursions into Russia itself, slaughtering Russian civilians, taking Russian civilians hostage, all on the basis of a political programme explicitly advocating the destruction of Russia. There is no such situation in the Ukraine and nor any prospect of one. And If there was it wouldn't be supported.

There are huge differences between the two.